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  1. #1
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    Carrier chiller controls?

    The facility Iím at is looking to up grade the existing Carrier CCN chiller controls to i-Vu. At a resent contractor meeting several items were discussed but mostly it came down to energy savings. Can the i-Vu controls shut down a small chiller before starting a larger one? We were told No, a larger chiller will start on ACR then the smaller one secures.
    This running of 2 machines = a higher KW demand and higher operating costs. (Several thousands of $ís a day)

    Other then i-Vu what are our options for chiller controls?

  2. #2
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    What kind of facility is it?

  3. #3
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    You were told correctly. The i-Vu is just an internet/intranet customer graphical front end. You could look at the Chillervisor control or use a CC6400 to custom program your chiller sequencing. http://www.commercial.carrier.com/co...PRD137,00.html

  4. #4
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    charleston,wva,usa
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    He is correct in that the I-VUE is just an interface. The 6400 is your best bet for custom programing.

  5. #5
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    For sequencing Carrier chillers I'm with mbarson, the chillervisor is the best
    way to go. The latest version has a add/drop feature for shuffling a pony chiller with larger ones but I still think it will still start the smaller chiller with the larger one running and run both for a short while before dropping the bigger machine.

    Since it doesn't control pumps, you probably are going to need a little best programming to make it work.

  6. #6
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    First thing is that the Chillervisor which uses the ACR Algorithm in determining Chiller/s Start is probably not your best option.
    I think there may have been some miscommunication in the discussion of the Plant Operation because the Chillervisor Starts the Lead Chiller based on the Remote Start Contact input (Cooling Call) from the BMS, the Lag Chiller Start is determined from the ACR Algorithm.

    It would seem you would be better off getting Carrier to instal a CC6400 controller and getting them to write a custom program to suit your requirements. Shouldn't be an issue, if they know how to write decent plant control programs.......

    Another option to consider may be to instal a BACnet or LON gateway on each chiller, which then opens you up to be able to use almost any manufacturers controllers to do the same job.

    I-Vu is a nice product, but it is still in its infancy really, and ALC (OEM Controls) are really not interested in giving it the same attention as they do to their own products.
    Bear in mind that if you want any config changes or programming to be done at the controller level, they cannot be done in I-VU, Carrier will need to attend site and and connect using their proprietary software to address any mods you want done.

    Good luck

  7. #7
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    As far as I have seen, all controller tables are accessible through i-Vu, no other software is needed. The security levels can be changed to keep operators from making changes. Only Best++ programs cannot be done trough the i-Vu.

  8. #8
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    Thread Starter
    Quote Originally Posted by grgjohno View Post
    First thing is that the Chillervisor which uses the ACR Algorithm in determining Chiller/s Start is probably not your best option.
    I think there may have been some miscommunication in the discussion of the Plant Operation because the Chillervisor Starts the Lead Chiller based on the Remote Start Contact input (Cooling Call) from the BMS, the Lag Chiller Start is determined from the ACR Algorithm.
    Initial start is by OAT. Above 56*F lead chiller starts, 1st & 2nd lag are controlled by ACR, thatís the problem. Add / Drop will start a 2nd chiller then shut down the smaller. The starting load + running 2 machines for a minute or 2 adds up to a huge KW demand. Building BMS has no control over the chillers; all they can do is monitor. (The powers to be want no outside control of the plant, No phone or internet connections period)

    Quote Originally Posted by grgjohno View Post
    It would seem you would be better off getting Carrier to instal a CC6400 controller and getting them to write a custom program to suit your requirements. Shouldn't be an issue, if they know how to write decent plant control programs.......
    I trust the Carrier Controls Tech, and this is in the proposal. I think the problem may have been in the original set up 10 years ago when they went from a Lead / Lag controller for just 2 machines to 4 machines & CCN.

    Quote Originally Posted by grgjohno View Post
    Another option to consider may be to instal a BACnet or LON gateway on each chiller, which then opens you up to be able to use almost any manufacturers controllers to do the same job.
    Iíll pass this on to our control geeks.

    Quote Originally Posted by grgjohno View Post
    I-Vu is a nice product, but it is still in its infancy really, and ALC (OEM Controls) are really not interested in giving it the same attention as they do to their own products.
    Bear in mind that if you want any config changes or programming to be done at the controller level, they cannot be done in I-VU, Carrier will need to attend site and and connect using their proprietary software to address any mods you want done.

    Good luck





    Quote Originally Posted by mbarson View Post
    . Only Best++ programs cannot be done trough the i-Vu.
    I assume ďOnly Best++ programs Can be done.

  9. #9
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    If you only have two different size chillers and don't want them to run concurrently, you really don't need a chillervisor - it can be done with standard 6400 programs or *best++.
    However the chillervisor is a pretty slick for rotating chillers if one has a problem, or running both if there is too much load for one.

    Back to your initial issue kw, is the "demand limit" set up on both machines and the chillervisor? You will get a demand spike when the bigger one starts, not much to do about that unless it has a vfd. But the chillervisor is supposed to demand limit both machines for a while to eliminate short-cycling, so the kw shouldn't be more then the big one alone. Also you can shorten the duration of both the "ACR & RCR" algorithms so this only goes on for a short while.

    * Started with Best, then went on to Best++, always thought that the ++ was kinda silly like super jumbo double grade AA. Now fooling around with Expert Best.

  10. #10
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    Thread Starter
    When I first arrived in this plant it was a mess. The chillers were basically operating in local. That was 2+ years ago. CCN is now controlling the operation of the plant; but I still decide lead, 1st lag, 2nd lag and stand by.

    As I said in post #8
    ďI think the problem may have been in the original set up 10 years ago when they went from a Lead / Lag controller for just 2 machines to 4 machines & CCN.Ē
    This system may not have been commissioned properly from the start. Who knows?

    The system has the KW demand limiting capability but Iíve been told it has never worked, and I havenít tried it yet! (Energy savings were low on my list of priorities) Again were back to the original set up and the past ďExpertsĒ. Iím from a different school and want to find out why it didnít work and make it work!

    In the contractor meeting I was at Carrier stated they would just up load the existing information from CCN to i-VU. Thatís my concern; if it doesnít work in CCN then it probably wonít work in i-Vu. Who knows maybe a new program needs to be written?

  11. #11
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    I was gonna be a wise ass and suggest A 90-340 RELAY. n ot knowing the system I have little to offer. Happy new Years to you and vickie. Yes dear

  12. #12
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    The problem I see with most CCN comfortview problems is training .Having someone on-sire on how to schedule things. Sounds like you might have alot of the hardware possibly on-site. I-vue is a better interface for the user than Comfortview is.

  13. #13
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    Thread Starter
    Quote Originally Posted by jpb2 View Post
    I was gonna be a wise ass and suggest A 90-340 RELAY. n ot knowing the system I have little to offer. Happy new Years to you and vickie. Yes dear
    I prefer an A12-701 Constant Cut-In Control my self.











    Thanks for the laugh Jeff it was needed.

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