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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
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    Just my 2 Cents

    Hello All!!

    Awesome discussion! And, very great points!!

    I can relate w/ numbawunfela pain and anguish. Especially, when all you want to do is learn something, but they put up a monetary fee just to see if you want to use it or not. That's not what I would say smart or popular to making people accept it in the first place.

    This situation is how i felt about how Zigbee release to the world their open protocol. And, look how successful it has been in getting the word around. It's been out there for a very long time till finally it is getting some momentum.

    What everyone should be asking themselves about communicating HVAC systems that seems to be missed here is can I buy whatever product I want and install it?

    That is the definition to me of open. Can I buy the best product and price product? Or, am I locked in.

    Take a look at the current communicating systems out there that have been sold by the Major HVAC distributors and see if they can work with each other.

    You'll see that ClimateTalk used in those 2 OEMS as specified in this discussion should be valid point enough that it is open and able to be competitive.

    So, back to numbawunfela detail discussions with the protocol people. I agree what a load of BS when all you want to do is find out how your product can be successful and make you money.

    Then I suggest taking the first step and try to get a teleconference with these guys to help you understand more without having to pay. But, I do like your approach on trying to find contractors out there that have installed it.

    Just to note, I think Rheem did a soft launch of this system last year some time to help grow some experience in dealing with comm systems. Hence, the lack of real marketing push and your frustration with finding info. They are waiting for a full product line of every component before really going to town in the marketing arena.

    At ashrae it was shown another communicating stat at the Emerson booth that is talking ClimateTalk. Can you find another protocol that works with HVAC systems that has more than the one original stat that came out to work with it. Another proof that the design is able to go to different platforms and still operate as it is intended.

    In regards to the modbus reference and how it is on the internet for all to read is again a great point. But if you ever read it, you would know that all it really defines is the lower comm layers of communicating. It doesn't tell an application developer how to be a thermostat, heat pump, or work in a dual fuel system.

    To the comment about Liebert, another great point but again Liebert sells things for 10K compared to 100 dollars. So, I would hope you would think Emerson is not going to burden the HVAC world with the same costs that is seen at division like Liebert who make power manangement systems that huge in today's data management world of IT. Not, the truck of some HVAC contractor who is trying to have a cost effective and real world solution.

    To the comment from numbawunfela stating "I am worried about the reinventing the wheel scenario, and investing in something I cant find english language literature on later."

    Another great point, however, I would have to say that the wheel had to be re-invented because today's HVAC systems don't talk serial so how can you go around re-inventing the wheel of the current 24VAC on/offs.

    I will tell you the wheel is better and can go farther from all the lessons learn in this proven 24VAC on/off system. And, isn't that what you'd expect from re-inventing something that is worthwhile.

    Regarding your latest comment last night numbawunfela stating "So we never used it. It seems like it is in the early stages of development, and it may not be widespread for at least another year to 2 years. I have very rarely had a more infuriating experience with a manufacturer."

    Not sure where you think it is in early stages if it is going to production last year. And, another OEM this year. I do apologize for your frustration and have been there. What I try to do is find the other person who knows the answer. Hopefully, I can.

    One last tidbit, I'd like to through out to the HVAC community is that ClimateTalk is not RS-485 wired only. ClimateTalk is your applications talking the same language whatever physical medium it uses. That's powerful and can do many things in the future.

    Again, I like this discussion and everything I'm stating are things that I have talked to w/ people developing this ClimateTalk systems and would be happy to answer your questions so that you can make the informed decisions to either like or hate it.

    People in this economy should question everything and not just accept things.


  2. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
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    Sorry, I forgot to add who I am and how I relate to this topic.

    My name is Jim Garozzo, and I am Communicating Systems Manager at White-Rodgers, which is a Division of Emerson. I have been working with communications protocols in the area of HVAC for at least nine years.

    I'd be happy to help answer high level or low level questions regarding your questions in this fast moving HVAC world that is seeing a transition of the normal paradigm of 24VAC ON/OFFs to something serial that can not be seen without more costly tools.

    Again, I like this discussion. It helps me understand how to make products better instead of another product out there with no real use.


  3. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Saint Louis
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    Full Disclosure

    In the interest of full disclosure, I would like to introduce myself as Anil Ramachandran, a Communications Engineer working with Emerson Climate Technologies - White-Rodgers on ClimateTalk.



  4. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Tranas, Sweden
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    Following the current trend, I am at R&D DDC/Communications at Bosch Thermotechnic. My focus is on Heat Pumps almost only at the time.
    I came from the outside world as a programmer/systems design on various automated systems (To me, it seems like all variants of them ).

    And as a comment, the transition from 24Vac ON/OFF to communication was a releif when it came through some years back. Today it is almost only
    a question as to the different system being able to talk to each other, overcoming propriety boundaries.

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