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  1. #66
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    May 2014
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    They should probably be the wife beaters.

    You know, for when we strip down on a roof, then forget to get dressed when we go down to our trucks to get parts.


    Quote Originally Posted by jtrammel View Post
    We should get some hvac-talk shirts made... Dad

  2. #67
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    Mount Holly, NC
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    The gyroscopic effect has very little to do with a bike stability... It is more the angle of the front wheel steering pivot, and the counter tourque of the pedals.

    If it was gyroscopic, it would work with the wheel steering pivot anyplace, at any angle, but the bike requires a huge pivot angle to remain upright... The backwards part fails because of the torque and counter tourque are reversed, we basically pull the bike over when trying to correct it.

    No hands would work.

    But not because of gyroscopic forces... Because of foot steering counter tourque and not touching the handlebars and messing the wheel angle.

    Try riding ANY bicycle backwards... Ya can't do it... The steering angle tips ya over.


    Quote Originally Posted by BBeerme View Post
    You know, I just figured it out. I could ride it. I could ride the backwards bicycle.

    Just so long as I did not use my hands.

    I used to ride my bike everywhere with no hands, back when I was a kid. Heard something several years ago where they passed a law saying you couldn't ride a bike with no hands. I was like, REALLY? Poor kids grow up now-a-days not knowing how to do anything.

    And here's a little fun fact:

    Do you know why you can ride a bike and turn corners etc with no hands?

    Because the wheels act like gyroscopes. In particular, the front wheel. And there is a 90 degree effect on an action. So, for example, as long as the wheel is rotating, if you push the top of the wheel to the right [as in lean the bike to the right], then there is a re-action 90*'s in the direction the wheel is turning, which means the very front of the wheel will move to the right, essentially turning the bike.

    Same principle applies to motorcycles. Which is why it is so difficult for a small person to ride a big motorcycle. They don't have enough body weight to easily 'tip' the bike so it will turn on it's own.
    The TRUE highest cost system is the system not installed properly...

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  3. #68
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    May 2014
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    I don't believe I said anything about stability. It's how a gyroscope works. And the first self navigating systems on boats, I believe.

    For fun, get one of those swivel exercise things you stand on and swivel on. Then weld some handles onto a bicycle wheel. Spin the bike wheel, tip it left to right, and notice how you rotate on the swivel thingy.

    Pretty cool. And yes, I did do this as a kid. Neighborhood friends tripped out.

    Really explains the dynamics of a gyroscope, and potential uses of a gyroscope.





    Quote Originally Posted by vstech View Post
    The gyroscopic effect has very little to do with a bike stability... It is more the angle of the front wheel steering pivot, and the counter tourque of the pedals.

    If it was gyroscopic, it would work with the wheel steering pivot anyplace, at any angle, but the bike requires a huge pivot angle to remain upright... The backwards part fails because of the torque and counter tourque are reversed, we basically pull the bike over when trying to correct it.

    No hands would work.

    But not because of gyroscopic forces... Because of foot steering counter tourque and not touching the handlebars and messing the wheel angle.

    Try riding ANY bicycle backwards... Ya can't do it... The steering angle tips ya over.

  4. #69
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
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    west michigan
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    Point here is.... you don't mix R 22 with anything. Reevaluate the current service bulletins from Emerson where they now don't recommend R422 and their reasoning as to why they have changed their minds.

    could we get a link to these bulletins?

  5. #70
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
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    East Meadow, N.Y.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forane22 View Post
    The EPA's allocation of R-22 reduces to +/- 17 m/lbs in 2016. Down from 25 m/lbs in 2015 and 55 million in 2014. Their are several retrofit gases or "drop-ins" as many like to call them on the market that could work in many systems. I say "could" since their will always be trade offs on capacity, efficiency, oil management, and labor/time. Recognizing that the system layout is very important when choosing whether to stick with R-22 or use a retrofit gas. I would like to know your opinion.

    Is their a dollar price per/cylinder of 22 where you say-- ok what else is their. I will take the trade offs ? $375 per/cy ?

    Or do you have enough 22 stashed in the garage to sustain you ?

    Are you focused on new equipment-- forget keeping the older 22 stuff running ?
    I use R-22 or nothing. Years ago we had some old customers bar customers that had old R-12 refrigeration systems and after a while R-12 became to ridiculous to use anymore. There were so few customers left. So they asked us to use Hot-Shot, head pressures were mad high, to achieve the same cooling. The units worked but start relays started toasting, so for me it is what it says on the unit.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick

  6. #71
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    Dec 2016
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    East Meadow, N.Y.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forane22 View Post
    The EPA's allocation of R-22 reduces to +/- 17 m/lbs in 2016. Down from 25 m/lbs in 2015 and 55 million in 2014. Their are several retrofit gases or "drop-ins" as many like to call them on the market that could work in many systems. I say "could" since their will always be trade offs on capacity, efficiency, oil management, and labor/time. Recognizing that the system layout is very important when choosing whether to stick with R-22 or use a retrofit gas. I would like to know your opinion.

    Is their a dollar price per/cylinder of 22 where you say-- ok what else is their. I will take the trade offs ? $375 per/cy ?

    Or do you have enough 22 stashed in the garage to sustain you ?

    Are you focused on new equipment-- forget keeping the older 22 stuff running ?
    I just replaced a 5 ton tin can compressor in a friends rooftop unit. It was one of two compressors. It took R-22, my son was looking to sell a container he had, so it all worked out.

    He paid $360 for it, used it once to recharge an old system. And then sold it for $360. He could have gotten a lot more for it, but it is a mutual friend.

    I noticed while doing that job, that they keep making those compressors heavier and heavier each time you install them haha. Or I am getting older.


    Sincerely,

    William McCormick

  7. #72
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    Mar 2004
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    west michigan
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    lol I'm right there with you on the compressors getting heavier must be that Chinese steel. and I'm right there with you on staying with the original refrigerants
    however our best customer has a whole lotta r-22 units so we are looking at the new replacements. Dad made a statement bout Emerson changing their mind about nu-22 and that there was documentation on it I would like to see the documentation, as that's one of the replacements we are looking at. If any one could share this documentation that would be cool. I've heard about 407c anybody got the field pros and cons of this one

  8. #73
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    Dec 2016
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    East Meadow, N.Y.
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    Quote Originally Posted by budman64 View Post
    lol I'm right there with you on the compressors getting heavier must be that Chinese steel. and I'm right there with you on staying with the original refrigerants
    however our best customer has a whole lotta r-22 units so we are looking at the new replacements. Dad made a statement bout Emerson changing their mind about nu-22 and that there was documentation on it I would like to see the documentation, as that's one of the replacements we are looking at. If any one could share this documentation that would be cool. I've heard about 407c anybody got the field pros and cons of this one
    http://www.icorinternational.com/images/nubvsr22.pdf

    That is not the whole chart, but who runs a residential R-22 system at 239 psi head unless they hook up their R-410A gauges to the system by mistake or forget to vacuum the system down before opening the gas valves on the condenser? Or the system is undersized and you just keep adding freon in hope of it doing the job?

    My guess is that if you are down at 175 psi head, you are going to have 45-50 psi suction with Nu-22B, but that is just a guess. It seems just like Hot-Shot to me for R-12.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick

  9. #74
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    Mar 2004
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    yeah i have all the icor data I'm looking for the data that the site admin Dad was talking about from emerson

  10. #75
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    Dec 2016
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    East Meadow, N.Y.
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    Quote Originally Posted by budman64 View Post
    yeah i have all the icor data I'm looking for the data that the site admin Dad was talking about from emerson
    http://www.ac-heatingconnect.com/why...erants-matter/

    Very interesting your compressor losses its UL approval, in turn your building loses its UL certificate, if you use the NU-R22B in place of R-22.

    Oh yea I want to do that for my customers.

    For friends after super storm Sandy, I wire brushed compressor terminals, and replaced all wiring, condenser fan, contractors, and caps so they would have some AC and dehumidification. A very low total cost actually per unit for materials. But time consuming for sure.

    You could see the copper piping getting a little extra green where it touched any other material in the unit, from the salt water.
    The insurance companies should have just replaced the units, because they are going to go from corrosion in the near future anyway. The liquid line dryers for sure will be gone soon. But many of the insurance companies and FEMA would just not fork over the money. Unless you were a lawyer or legislator you got almost nothing. Even after you got money, you would have to give it back because, you were not allowed to do the work yourself. Or you got almost nothing back for doing it yourself. There were no contractors left in many cases to do the work right away, so you had to do it yourself. They told so many people so many different things, and then reneged on almost everything.

    My point is could you imagine trying to get insurance money for your building, after a compressor with NU-r22B started a fire in a building?

    I am just saying no to that.



    Sincerely,

    William McCormick

  11. #76
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    Dec 2016
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    East Meadow, N.Y.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HVAC_Marc View Post
    This is the definition of HACK
    I have left short runs of existing line set in a wall, when converting from R-22 to R-410A, but I flushed them with R-11 which is expensive and time consuming in itself. Not to mention a lot of physical labor.

    I worked on semi hermitic rack systems with large particle filters with a huge sight glass that would catch the suction filter dryer if it sucked. I could watch the R-11 first liquify the carbon from a burnout and then evaporate it under vacuum pressure. After that I always use R-11 even on new line sets.

    I have never had a problem since.

    I believe pure R-11 is the very light gas that is left after you vacuum the system out as well. This seems to make for some very nice pressures on both suction and high side.

    I have dumped a few systems that had high head pressures and low suction pressures, flushed them with R-11 added an ounce or two of oil, and the result was truly remarkable. I have heard things like "it works better now".

    If I had not had to use the R-11 before, I doubt I would love it for residential. Those stupid valves they have for the cans are a pain. When I come across a goof one i save it for next time. That would screw up someone that does not do it all the time. Just knowing how to use it, and flush it, took some time to get comfortable with. A lot of guys use R-22 to flush it out haha, certainly not EPA approved. They do not have their nitrogen tank with them.

    I really think switching from one oil to another is a hack. I would have to cut the line set and clean the compressor and condenser and then the evaporate separately with R-11. Or just get them a new system.

    I watched Hot-Shot chew up start relays and compressors on systems that had run perfectly for years. Then they tried adding and taking out Hot-Shot for different seasons. It was so silly, but I understand some of that bar equipment would have cost $35,000 to replace. Most bar owners do not have that kind of extra cash laying around.

    One bar owner was laying out on average $400 a week in service calls to have us come and see why the beer was taking so long to chill. Why the ice was melting. One day I asked him at what point are you going to get something for your money. Next week he had all new equipment.

    We had been cleaning the coils once a week, to keep the units working at maximum. It was just silly. I wish there was no Hot-Shot it would have been easier for me.


    Sincerely,

    William McCormick

  12. #77
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Billington Heights, NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill mcC View Post
    I have left short runs of existing line set in a wall, when converting from R-22 to R-410A, but I flushed them with R-11 which is expensive and time consuming in itself. Not to mention a lot of physical labor.

    I worked on semi hermitic rack systems with large particle filters with a huge sight glass that would catch the suction filter dryer if it sucked. I could watch the R-11 first liquify the carbon from a burnout and then evaporate it under vacuum pressure. After that I always use R-11 even on new line sets.

    I have never had a problem since.

    I believe pure R-11 is the very light gas that is left after you vacuum the system out as well. This seems to make for some very nice pressures on both suction and high side.

    I have dumped a few systems that had high head pressures and low suction pressures, flushed them with R-11 added an ounce or two of oil, and the result was truly remarkable. I have heard things like "it works better now".

    If I had not had to use the R-11 before, I doubt I would love it for residential. Those stupid valves they have for the cans are a pain. When I come across a goof one i save it for next time. That would screw up someone that does not do it all the time. Just knowing how to use it, and flush it, took some time to get comfortable with. A lot of guys use R-22 to flush it out haha, certainly not EPA approved. They do not have their nitrogen tank with them.

    I really think switching from one oil to another is a hack. I would have to cut the line set and clean the compressor and condenser and then the evaporate separately with R-11. Or just get them a new system.

    I watched Hot-Shot chew up start relays and compressors on systems that had run perfectly for years. Then they tried adding and taking out Hot-Shot for different seasons. It was so silly, but I understand some of that bar equipment would have cost $35,000 to replace. Most bar owners do not have that kind of extra cash laying around.

    One bar owner was laying out on average $400 a week in service calls to have us come and see why the beer was taking so long to chill. Why the ice was melting. One day I asked him at what point are you going to get something for your money. Next week he had all new equipment.

    We had been cleaning the coils once a week, to keep the units working at maximum. It was just silly. I wish there was no Hot-Shot it would have been easier for me.


    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    You took my quote out of context. Dropping one refrigerant on top of another (mixing them) is a violation of EPA guidelines and the mechanical code.
    Anyone that does that is a HACK!

  13. #78
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    Mar 2004
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    west michigan
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    thanks for the link

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