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  1. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Space Racer View Post
    Who said anything about taking measures into their own hands?

    If you scroll up a few posts, you can see that I said

    The fact that VW went to such measures is yet another symptom of the fact that government agencies like the EPA have gotten out of control.

    Not only are you inferring things not implied; you are misrepresenting my simple statement.

    And you are using these fabricated falsehoods to attack my observation of the truth.

    How low will you go?
    Indeed.....but to even further go further they get to play the part of an independent judge panel and declare it a crime.
    No crime here...just clever innovation. ....akin to taking the tunnel and getting charged with J walking.
    ...

  2. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturated Suter View Post
    Isn't this what our public schools do? Everything is now geared for the tests. They prepare you for the test but fail to prepare you for the real world. If it's good enough for the left hand it should be good enough for the right.
    Same for seer and eer as well...noise tests....outside these tests parameters they behave differently.
    ...

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  4. #29
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    Volkswagon was doing like every other single person in business........ they were thinking of the almighty dollar first....... and it came back to bite them on the bee hind.

    I had a 73 super beetle..... wish I still had it.....
    The bible is my constitution and the constitution is my bible.

    WE THE PEOPLE refers to THEM and not YOU.

    Chewbacca Mom 2016

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri Guy View Post
    Same for seer and eer as well...noise tests....outside these tests parameters they behave differently.
    It only serves to add costs to the end user. But some can't figure out how that happens.

    We may need single payer HVAC someday. After all, a livable indoor climate is a right. Look at how these corporations are ripping us off trying to live up to the government regulation and meddling. Government should really step in and do something. After all, its not like we will ever see inexpensive HVAC equipment installs and service like we used to bfore government got involved.

  6. #31
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    Thread Starter
    It seems like a lot of you guys think VW did little or nothing wrong. They were just trying to make the rules work for them so to speak. Just curious, don't you think there should be some limits on pollution? Do you really want you and your kids to breathe in anything that a company thinks is ok and will make them a dollar? I've seen pictures of China, where a lot of people walk around wearing masks because the air is so polluted. Certainly we want some regulation? Who and where the line is drawn is debatable but someone needs to draw it. No?

  7. #32
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    VW manufactured cars that failed to comply with regulations; they defrauded the public; they broke the laws written by the regulating agencies of many countries; and they did it on a massive scale.

    Seems to me it's pretty obvious VW did something wrong. Do you think someone needs to restate the obvious?

    It remains to be seen how much harm was done and how much harm might have been done if they had been allowed to continue. But it appears to me that the most offensive thing they did was to spit in the face of the EPA and similar agencies.

    Cars don't pollute much these days. So when the EPA forces car companies to spend billions of dollars to reduce their pollution, we're talking about forcing companies that have eliminated something on the order of 98% of their pollution to cut back say another half a percentage point. It's a major case of diminishing returns, and it serves no reasonable purpose.

    If the EPA and similar agencies truly want to reduce pollution, they should turn more attention to large ocean-going vessels. They are among the (if not the) biggest polluters in the world.
    Vacuum Technology:
    CRUD = Contamination Resulting in Undesirable Deposits.
    CRAPP = Contamination Resulting in Additional Partial Pressure.

    Change your vacuum pump oil now.

    Test. Testing, 1,2,3.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by newoldtech View Post
    It seems like a lot of you guys think VW did little or nothing wrong. They were just trying to make the rules work for them so to speak. Just curious, don't you think there should be some limits on pollution? Do you really want you and your kids to breathe in anything that a company thinks is ok and will make them a dollar? I've seen pictures of China, where a lot of people walk around wearing masks because the air is so polluted. Certainly we want some regulation? Who and where the line is drawn is debatable but someone needs to draw it. No?
    I do believe VW committed serious crimes and the execs should be brought up on charges.

    I do believe in reasonable regulations, which we had many years ago. This latest round of regs are over the top.

    http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/08/29...?referer=&_r=0

    The Obama administration imposed drastic and confiscatory regs on automakers.

    Again I'll ask, why do mid grade cars cost $40k? Do you not see how more and more needless government regulations and meddling are increasing the costs for us. It's the slow trickle that will eventually lead to dopes to call for single payer car ownership. Its similar to what destroyed medical care over the past 50 years.

    But yes, the execs need to be strung up. And they will be.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Space Racer View Post
    Seems to me it's pretty obvious VW did something wrong. Do you think someone needs to restate the obvious?
    Yes. Exactly. This message needs to be read several times by a few, one in particular ARP memeber. Not just pertaining to this thread.

  10. #35
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    I kinda think they should get metal for "meeting the requirements of the test"

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by newoldtech View Post
    It seems like a lot of you guys think VW did little or nothing wrong. They were just trying to make the rules work for them so to speak. Just curious, don't you think there should be some limits on pollution? Do you really want you and your kids to breathe in anything that a company thinks is ok and will make them a dollar? I've seen pictures of China, where a lot of people walk around wearing masks because the air is so polluted. Certainly we want some regulation? Who and where the line is drawn is debatable but someone needs to draw it. No?
    My objection is VW being treated like a criminal....they supplied the vehicles and they passed...now had they been altered after the test I could object.
    Also those vehicles are not going to pollute anymore cruising around with the trick chip than without ....its when you put your foot in it that it occurs.
    VW essentially has a souped up diesel that will have good emissions during cruise conditions. ..but power on demand.
    People been souping up diesels for decades.....in the case of VW..a smaller engine is more efficient during normal driving...The other choice is a larger engine..A diesel likes to be worked to be efficient. ...a larger engine will be producing more smog due to less than ideal combustion temperatures. ..VW needs a pat on the back for producing a low emission engine with enough durability to be used for higher output when needed.
    Many diesels in cars are junk.... However VW makes quality diesel engines for the intended market they are used in....Punishing VW will only slow innovation in this case....as they will no longer have the need to build a superior engine capable of high output conditions.
    ...

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    IMO what happened...

    Was VW figured the 'risk/reward' ratio of doing this (they KNEW there was a chance they would get caught someday) WAS worth it. They built complicated spreadsheets and determined the reward was worth the risk.

    Sure... they are gonna have to fix 11+million cars... but I bet the accountants knew ahead of time it would work out to a profit. IMO the only difference between what VW did... and what many a corp gets away with (and NEVER gets caught)... is getting caught.
    And individuals get away with cheating on their taxes all the time... so what is the difference?
    Is it OK if I game the govt and win... yet not OK if the govt games the govt and wins? In the case of VW... folks got a car that ran better and got better mileage... seems to me they won.

    IMO folks need to get over their self-righteous and hypocritical attitudes.
    Absolutely agree.

    It's been done with recalls and known issues for decades.
    Risk/cost is figured up once a issue is known.
    Risk is cost of lawsuits. Cost is to fix.

    If risk outweighs cost, repair them.
    If not, let them ride.


    Same here.
    Profit/risk loss statement.

    You can bet it's was known on-high.

    Also, I agree with BrianGC.
    It's a clear cut case of breaking emissions standards.

    Due to the complex maze of whos in charge of what, I doubt any PERSONAL liability will be handed out.
    VW as a company will suffer, but the CEO just moves on, claiming he knew nothing, or was "pressured" to do so.
    There's no personal accountability.

    Lets say you work at a massive company.
    You break the law to make it look better on yourself, to get paid more.
    You catch wind of getting caught. Sell any shares you may have.
    "step down" from your position.
    Then claim you knew nothing about it, but didn't want to get blamed for the issue, and wanted out.

    The only thing you lose, is your job.
    Maybe, if enough media is brought against you, you lose your standing in your industry.
    Thats about it.

    It's insanity.
    "Better tell the sandman to stay away, because we're gonna be workin on this one all night."

    "Dude, you need more than 2 wires to a condenser to run a 2 stage heatpump."

    "Just get it done son."

    Dad adjusted

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitech 1 View Post
    I kinda think they should get metal for "meeting the requirements of the test"
    I expect all vehicles are designed with the test in mind....and if all software was decoded most auto manufacturers would be guilty of the same...in the case of VW they got caught......but caught doing what?....passing the tests with the parameters that were given to them....the epa needs to eat crow on this one and update thier testing procedures.
    The EPA itself is anything but honest and changes mpg test methods constantly...tailpipe emissions are used in the formula to determine mpg...not the actual fuel consumed...its only part of the equation.
    They are out of control...It is the epa that is the cause of hydo power not being feasible here in the states...A ten year plus study is needed...in which the study itself costs more than what it costs to build the hoover damn itself...not to mention the costs after to fund the epa AFTER the build and operations begin.

    I live next to a power plant. ...which sits on many many squate miles of coal.
    The land was purchased....and the power plant was built...mega dollars spent on equipment for excavation of caol....sweet spot as there is a low overburden to reach the coal...several years later the epa tells them they cant burn thier coal and they have to purchase coal from Wyoming....I guess that's good for Wyoming economically.....now mind you the scrubbers had to be installed by epa demand to burn the local coal..the plant was with in emissions limits....Then the epa tells them they have to burn Wyoming coal....its as if they were trying to bankrupt them.
    A minor cup of fuel on the ground could shut down roads..
    The plant is also forced to provide many square miles of recreational lake area to the public....maintain these lakes ...while the are patrolled by the government
    IMO the EPA is out of control and needs its powers regulated.
    ...

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  15. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    Nice for you to admit that coming down hard on corps is a Left thing. Probably explains why you won't ever do it, alway blaming govt. for corp greed.
    Some folks lust for $$$...
    And some folks lust for power and control over others... MR GC...
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Your comfort, Your way, Everyday!

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