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Best practices for BAS upgrade contracts
We're a small municipal entity upgrading the controls in a single building, most likely with a Johnson Metasys-based system.
The reason we're upgrading is because of a continual stream of temperature control issues over the past 15 years since the 15k sq ft facility was built.
Given this history, the powers-that-be are understandably nervous about this second go-round. Even after doing their best to identify the best contractor for the project -- as they did w/ the first go-round -- they would still like the benefit of whatever protections can be reasonably provided via legal means. We want to be fair to the contractor, but also to the taxpayers.
Nobody here is our lawyer, but given everyone's real-world HVAC experience, we'd appreciate any advice on how best to protect ourselves in the event of significant system design flaws, performance issues after commissioning, etc.
Are there particular clauses, articles, provisions, etc. we should think about including so that there's accountability all around?
If you have a template for a contract or provisions that you can recommend, feel free to share on this public site -- http://dropcanvas.com/s69mb -- or to email privately to bascontract@mailinator.com.
Thanks in advance.
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Are you positive it is a control issue, and not a design or equipment problem.
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Originally Posted by
buford
Are you positive it is a control issue, and not a design or equipment problem.
Not positive. However, we hired an engineering consultant to study our service history, building performance, etc., & had several HVAC contractors review the resulting report & do a walk-through of the facility. Consensus is that controls are the most likely culprit. If everyone's wrong, then we can continue diagnosing the problem once testing & balancing phase, etc. is complete. Regardless, the controls upgrade will happen because no one's keen on staying with the existing proprietary, dumb terminal system ...
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Johnson is Proprietary BTW....Hope they do a good job where you are, where I am we pay more to not use them.
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Can you at least put your location in your profile? One of these guys might be close by you. Also, what system do you currently have in the building?
Originally Posted by
MatrixTransform
very soon it is you that will be pwned
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Originally Posted by
fletchmon
most likely with a Johnson Metasys-based system.
That may be your first problem. Have you seriusly reviewed other manufacturers and rejected them for some reasons? You didn't mention what type of system is there now. It looks like you are getting nothing for your actual system but controllers according to the document (which you should have removed the price from). It looks like they are locking you into their proprietery system. They claim this a security issue but I don't belive it and if it is true they need to prove it. The latest Niagara software has been hardend recently. So according to this you will only be getting some graphics an not getting any of the controlled devices or sensors changed. Any more info would be great. I've seen a number of issues like poor sensor placement, wall holes behind sensors letting cold air in, pipes filled with mud not getting good water flow, dampers not working properly, NONE of these types of issues will be solved by a software upgrade. You need to get an engineer, list every one of the issues, the causes, and the cures, and get post job inspection commissioning. You need to make sure any new controllers speak Bacnet or Lon not N2. Period. The supervisor should be Nigara which is referred to as an "open" system. If they install NAEs most others will be locked out. That may be OK with you as long as you know it. Johnson, Siemens, Schneider, Trane, whoever are pushing their own systems to lock others out. Can't blame them for trying you just have to know their language. I'm sure they are very knowledgeable but you just need to be clear about what your problems are and what you are getting to fix the problems.
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Current system is Invensys. Sample contract was one copied off the internet because I needed a file to create the DropCanvas account, i.e., not ours. Sorry for not making that clear. We're in NH. FWIW, we spent about a month going round & round w/ different contractors, experts, etc., on how deeply to investigate possible mechanical issues. Eventually everyone did agree on tackling the BAS upgrade 1st.
Newbie question -- I thought Metasys was BACnet-compliant & therefore considered non-proprietary -- http://www.bacnetinternational.net/btl/index.php?m=15. In what sense is it considered proprietary?
Re: looking at other systems, we relied heavily on the advice of a consultant as no one in our small town has the necessary expertise. If there's a widespread feeling among HVAC pros that Johnson/ Metasys is a nightmare, then I'd much rather hear about now than later.
Appreciate the feedback!
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Originally Posted by
fletchmon
relied heavily on the advice of a consultant
1. I wouldn't just spell out a single system, unless the taxpayers like getting bent over.
2. Have a concise but specific sequence of operations for every piece of equipment put in the RFP. Your consultant should be able to provide this if he's worth anything.
3. Specify BTL or Lonmark listed devices and a frontend that has multiple service options, like Tridium.
4. I would interview potential contractors and form your own opinions before trusting a consultant that will be long gone while your stuck with the system for 15+yrs. After you find a few, let them bid it.
So this consultant's only recommendation is sole source JCI?
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Make sure you include in your contract all software and administrative privileges required to maintain, repair, fix, upgrade, or modify any and all equipment, graphics, alarms, programs, software, and internet capabilities.
Provide any control system specific tools required to maintain, repair, fix, upgrade, or modify any and all equipment(ie dongles, pucks, cables, etc).
Provide a laptop with the software needed to maintain, repair, fix, upgrade, or modify any and all equipment.
Programing code used on all installed products must be submitted in duplicates of 4 and must be in a book form hard copy and on CD/USB.
All user interface/front ends must have at least one available password that contains all privileges and may not prevent the site from accessing any portion of the system.
A floor plan will be provided with specifics of all controls and sensors location with detail written notes on the part used and what it is connected too.
A floor plan of the duct work layout with placement of the controllers and sensors.
All controllers, peripherals, cabinets, and wires shall be properly label to maintain an understanding of the items purpose, hardwire connections, and names/address.
All wires shall be install in a neat and organized fashion within national electrical standard codes, local codes, or state codes and meet state inspection requirements.
Upon completion an 8 hour training session will be scheduled, no sooner then one week after completion and no later then 2 months. Up to X number of employees will be trained on trending, scheduling, maintain needs, troubleshooting, and operation of the BMS. The installer will provide training paperwork for each employee at the class as well as 4 copies for future employee training.
Thats all I can think of at the moment.
If you're too "open" minded, your brains will fall out.
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
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Thanks for the suggestions, orion242.
We asked for BACnet compatible systems. Contractor X's Metasys proposal was simply the one that came out on top.
I'm still unclear on whether Metasys is considered an open, multiple service option. Folks seem to be suggesting that it isn't. If not, would like to know where it falls short.
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Thank you, XcelTech -- just what I was looking for. Much appreciated!
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I would specify a 2 year warranty
Break the training sessions up in at least two four-hour sessions. Any more than that and most minds turn to mush.
Definitely specify BACNet or LON
I think these guys have nailed down most of it, already.
Good luck!
Ken
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Originally Posted by
fletchmon
Thanks for the suggestions, orion242.
We asked for BACnet compatible systems. Contractor X's Metasys proposal was simply the one that came out on top.
I'm still unclear on whether Metasys is considered an open, multiple service option. Folks seem to be suggesting that it isn't. If not, would like to know where it falls short.
JCI is fully BACnet compliant. All of the devices carry the BTL mark. JCI has an enormous amount of collective knowledge and experience. There are some JCI haters on this site, but just talk to some other JCI customers in your area, and make your decision.
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I personally have some experience with both JCI lines. In our area, the company I work for was able to install, and service the Metasys line. We bought the product through a ABCS supplier on the west coast. This allowed us to play on the branch level for about 7 years. Then the product became increasing harder to get, and software upgrades becoming very expensive. The supplier making us provide current customer database with the metasys line installed. Telling us we were no longer able to do new install's, and holding software hostage for our current customers. We began installing the FX line the JCI re-branded Tridium device. Working with both, the NAE can't compare with the JACE!!! The way that JCI markets, and distributes their control lines is an obvious attempt to separate the contractor from the branch. The ADS,NAE,FEC being the branch stuff. The FX server, JACE, PCG being the contractor line. Regarding the field level the FEC, and PCG is the same controller with different color covers. And the programming tool the same, but the FEC is programmed with CCT, and the PCG programmed with PCT. Another attempt to separate branch from the contractor. What you will find when you can't price check any single source system, is a cheap up front install price. Then years of overpriced software upgrades, and expansion to your system. I would strongly suggest a Tridium based system, with multiple contractor options installing the system you choose.
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Originally Posted by
JCIman
JCI is fully BACnet compliant. All of the devices carry the BTL mark. JCI has an enormous amount of collective knowledge and experience. There are some JCI haters on this site, but just talk to some other JCI customers in your area, and make your decision.
The problem is they and others put proprietary head ends and software on top of the "Fully BACnet compliant" controllers. Works great as long as the performance is good and the customer is happy. I don't hate them and worked for them for many years. It really comes down to the performance of the installer and informing the customer that they have Fully BACnet compliant controllers but are sole sourcing the front end proprietary software.
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Originally Posted by
controlgeek
The problem is they and others put proprietary head ends and software on top of the "Fully BACnet compliant" controllers. Works great as long as the performance is good and the customer is happy. I don't hate them and worked for them for many years. It really comes down to the performance of the installer and informing the customer that they have Fully BACnet compliant controllers but are sole sourcing the front end proprietary software.
Even the network engines are BACnet, and you could put whatever front end on them you want, but IMO that wouldn't be as good as Metasys
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fletchmon,
"Metasys" or More correctly "Metasys System Extended Architecture" is proprietary to Johnson Controls Branch Offices. Nobody else can buy/supply/license/or upgrade it, period. If you select JCI you will be commiting to Sole Source .
You have an option, as mentioned already, to use nearly Identical Field Devices and a non-sole source "Front End" buy looking at the "Facility Explorer by Johnson Controls" product family which I must add is supplied by independant contractors called ABCS's (Authorized Building Control Specialists) an is Niagara Ax based. In our market there are at least 20 Niagara Ax certified contractors but there is only 1 (that's One) JCI Branch. That means that a customer has 19 more options for NON-JCI systems support and service.
(I am pretty sure I'll get sombody rilled up with that comment !)
Based on the information you provided I think you need to know that even the Most Outstanding Control System installed buy the Best Available people will not , EVER, be able to correct mechanical deficiencies or failures. I am somewhat puzzled buy the unconvincing advice to concentrate on controls, first. HVAC equipment has to be operating correctly mechanically before, emphasis on BEFORE, a realistic expectation can be place on the controls system to improve operation and/or efficencies.
IMO, write a pretty tight spec and request pre-bid budget estimates from 3 controls contractors. Consider your options at that point.
Good Luck
If sense were so common everyone would have it !
You cannot protect the Stupid from themselves !
"Experience is the ability to recognize a mistake Before you make it again!" (Stolen Quote)
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Originally Posted by
Cagey57
Based on the information you provided I think you need to know that even the Most Outstanding Control System installed buy the Best Available people will not , EVER, be able to correct mechanical deficiencies or failures. I am somewhat puzzled buy the unconvincing advice to concentrate on controls, first. HVAC equipment has to be operating correctly mechanically before, emphasis on BEFORE, a realistic expectation can be place on the controls system to improve operation and/or efficencies.
IMO, write a pretty tight spec and request pre-bid budget estimates from 3 controls contractors. Consider your options at that point.
Good Luck
I have found that during the course of controls retrofits, that the mechanical deficiencies can be determined and many of them dealt with. Also, the new controls will offer better monitoring and alarming capabilities to help determine what mechanical changes need to be made.
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Facility size of around 15K sq. ft. - smells like 30 zones or less, likely original mechanical design was
not very sophisticated. Buildings of this size rarely have a decent budget to hire a good mechanical/controls
engineer with the architect budget.
It would be so much more help to everyone if you would describe your type of HVAC and the nature of the problems.
Could be VAVs or VVTs, RTUs, or a couple of double duct AHU's.
I doubt that the original controls installer had much of a budget to put in high quality controls,
and doubt that the owner's staff (or HVAC Vendor) did good maintenance
on either the HVAC systems, and likely very little on the controls.
Hope I am wrong, but I work with a lot of government entities on these exact type of controls retrofits,
and 99% of the time, they are victims of their own lack of maintenance.
I suggest you call in a "HVAC Certified commissioning company", before you write any contracts or
specifications. Document exactly what you have before you design the retrofit.
Invensys (and for that matter, any top ten controls brand), installed, programmed and maintained correctly,
is not a bad system, but at 15, it does need to be upgraded.
As far as open protocols, don't even worry about those yet because sometimes when building
owners really push hard for OPEN controls (because they do not want to be locked into one vendor)
the bidding and servicing contractors see that building owner as a "never-loyal" "low bid shopping"
client, and will treat them as just another government service account to be "plucked".
As for BACnet - NOTHING in the standards EVER SAID "BACnet" protocol could not be used and implemented by a
controls company in a manner to "secretly lock the client into their front end", and therefore, 100% of all the BACnet
control companies do their best (EVERY DAY) to say out loud how OPEN they are, and steer clear of telling the client
about the BACnet dark dirty secret of front end and programming lockdowns. IT WILL NEVER change.
Find a small controls company that has owners actively engaged, and work with them on designing
something that will work with your HVAC, and focus on defining the exact problems to be resolved.
(always too cold or too cold, always too loud, etc.., be specific about issues for each area in the building)
If you can not clearly define what you would call a well done retrofit project, your project
will fall short of success.
Just because someone says they are BACnet, doesn't mean you want them in your building.
By the way, JCI has many different controls contractors installing their controls; some do fantastic work,
and some, including some regional JCI branch factory offices, can do very questionable installs, just like every
other controls brand out there.
And by the way, I am totally "end user/ building owner" biased controls person, and a big time supporter of
BACnet, just a bit sad that there will never be a fully OPEN solution to the technology lockdowns inherent to
the HVAC controls field.
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit" Aristotle
Remember to "Pay it Forward"; help out the newer generation of techs, remember someone during our career helped us! ("Pay it Forward" was by someone smarter than me!!)
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I would highly recommend staying away from the JCI Metasys line and moving into the JCI Tridium Niagara JACE. The existing system also sounds like a good candidate for integration. You would leave in all the existing field controllers and integrate the system into a new supervisory controller with an ASD driver. On the front end you would get what you want without spending the money on new controllers that are probably working well. There are many people on this site, including myself, who have completed this integration if you have questions.