Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 14 to 26 of 31

Thread: Economizer Help

  1. #14
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Salt Lake City/Tooele
    Posts
    5,447
    Post Likes
    I would add that there was an outcry from many of the manufactures when Honeywell discontinued their W72 and W74 modules. Honeywell has since started manufacturing these again, however, only in bulk and only for the manufacturers, so you should be able to locate these through CERTAIN local equipment manufacturers part warehouses. Not through any retailers though, still would need to upgrade to the JADE. Belimo has a new module that has been out for a bit to compete with the Jade, but personally I have yet to install or come across one. So I have not wasted my time thinking about this module and sensors.
    http://www.zipeconomizer.com/

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    27,409
    Post Likes
    I have long suspected that tech schools taught that all economizer issues were to resolved by jumping them out so that every call for cooling went to the compressor contactor. That is how I most often find them by the time I get there. <g>

    PHM
    ------



    Quote Originally Posted by HvacJaystl View Post
    OK so i get the basics about economizers. . .i know its got the enthalpy sensor and air mix sensor A B C D settings for climate regions and min position settings that they revert to. . my question is. . .is anyone really familiar with the wiring on these guys such as in diagnosing whether or not your actuator motor is bad or if its not receiving voltage. .The reason why i ask is today i had one acting goofy everything responded as normal i had the green light (FREE COOL) but the dampers never opened. would really like some literature on these too. . .
    going back tomorrow to diagnose it and dont feel like calling tech support

    HONEYWELL

    MOD# W7212A1025
    PHM
    --------
    The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking.

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    19,318
    Post Likes
    I have come across more then a few never hooked up. That's right, brand new never connected. Only to find it's to late, so rusted and corroded they aren't worth fixing

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    539
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by VTP99 View Post
    I have come across more then a few never hooked up. That's right, brand new never connected. Only to find it's to late, so rusted and corroded they aren't worth fixing
    Better than that, hooked up and functioning, but without the intake or exhaust hoods. ????

  5. #18
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Salt Lake City/Tooele
    Posts
    5,447
    Post Likes
    Old post, just updated it with a new link

    I remember back in the days when I came across my first economizer.....I was lost. I hate feeling lost, so I studied and became quite the guru with them. Much like residential furnaces and AC troubleshooting, it is boring now! Once you mastered the basics, there really isn't much that surprises you any more. I guess that is why I love commercial, it is all unique and a bit more challenging. Really have to take in all you learned and just think big, sometimes really big. But it is all the same.

    So with economization, once you understand the basic principles of return air temp/humidity, outdoor air temp/humidity, and can set down and plot a pyschrometric chart, it just becomes second nature to figure out who is going to be priority...mother nature or the machine.

    Economization is probably the biggest money making thing for me in the of seasons. Hard sell sometimes, but the utility bills do not lie! Or maybe you can add some IceCold refrigerant additive to the system and save some bucks too?....I had to throw that out...LOL

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Southeastern Pa
    Posts
    32,184
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by slctech View Post
    I would add that there was an outcry from many of the manufactures when Honeywell discontinued their W72 and W74 modules. Honeywell has since started manufacturing these again, however, only in bulk and only for the manufacturers, so you should be able to locate these through CERTAIN local equipment manufacturers part warehouses. Not through any retailers though, still would need to upgrade to the JADE. Belimo has a new module that has been out for a bit to compete with the Jade, but personally I have yet to install or come across one. So I have not wasted my time thinking about this module and sensors.
    http://www.zipeconomizer.com/
    I am forced to wonder if they addressed the quality control aspect of those modules. The last 10 or so my Co installed were all bad, right out of the box.

    The pair of Jade controllers I installed were fine, which makes me believe there was a known defect in the previous designs.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

    RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist
    Member, IAEI

    AOP Forum Rules:







  7. #20
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Salt Lake City/Tooele
    Posts
    5,447
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    I am forced to wonder if they addressed the quality control aspect of those modules. The last 10 or so my Co installed were all bad, right out of the box.
    I do not think so. A month ago I had some York Sunlines with bad modules. Picked up two modules from the distributor and one was DOA. Took it back, at least the York distributor doesn't question me when I tell them a new part is FUBAR, they gave me another and that worked fine. In my case on the DOA module it would not operate the actuator, just no output. Was your modules individually packaged or were they just given to you loose? Both the York and Carrier dealers here, just grab them out of a bulk box on the shelf and hand you one, they are not individually packaged.

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Southeastern Pa
    Posts
    32,184
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by slctech View Post
    I do not think so. A month ago I had some York Sunlines with bad modules. Picked up two modules from the distributor and one was DOA. Took it back, at least the York distributor doesn't question me when I tell them a new part is FUBAR, they gave me another and that worked fine. In my case on the DOA module it would not operate the actuator, just no output. Was your modules individually packaged or were they just given to you loose? Both the York and Carrier dealers here, just grab them out of a bulk box on the shelf and hand you one, they are not individually packaged.
    Up until summer of 2012, they were individually packaged, and came from United. We stopped quoting them immediately because we were eating up a lot of labor under warranty.

    Because of that experience, I suggested the Jade package, and my office got approval from the client facilities manager.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

    RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist
    Member, IAEI

    AOP Forum Rules:







  9. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    1,511
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    Bear in mind...

    the economizer section only receives power when the fan runs. I recall this from an experience I had on a Carrier RTU.

    Since the manufacturers are using someone else's design (Honeywell's) I believe you will find this to be the case on other units as well..

    The Lennox L series uses an accessory board mounted on the IMC, in place of the Honeywell logic module.

    Note that the enthalpy sensors and logic modules have a very high failure rate. Honeywell has changed the system to the new Jade design, which can replace the logic module in the Carrier RTU's, as the actuator motor can be driven by the Jade.

    Strangely, Carrier does not yet provide its own retrofit kit for existing RTU's. You have to order generic Jade parts and configure them yourself.

    HTH.

    I am having issues with a Honeywell 7212. Although it does not indicate 'free cooling' it will not energize the compressors. If I pull the 24volts powering the economizer module, I should be able to bypass the module, correct?

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Dacula, GA
    Posts
    20,276
    Post Likes
    One mechanical design engineering firm in GA has stopped using enthalpy control on economizers and gone back to a safe low setting on OA temperature of around 45 - 50 F to open and close the dampers because of the problems experienced with enthalpy control, sensors, etc. rather from installation, equipment, or maintenance.

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    edmonds wa
    Posts
    4,434
    Post Likes
    Just because you have a green light does not make the module bad if the damper does not move. There is just a little bit more to it. What is the mixed air temp? Is there a Y1 signal? Does the min position work etc,etc. Junior has brought up again, a lot of info that any of us in the trade can use. For the new guys it should be printed and put in a section of a binder for truck seat reading, or on the smart phone. Econo repair is clean and easy lifting work, which for me i wish i had more of it. Around here, the power co will pay for tuneups and repairs on them, some of our people are already trained for this , but the office needs to get on board with this.
    UA Local 32 retired as of Jan 2020

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    539
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by ncboston View Post
    I am having issues with a Honeywell 7212. Although it does not indicate 'free cooling' it will not energize the compressors. If I pull the 24volts powering the economizer module, I should be able to bypass the module, correct?
    With the power wire disconnected, yes the module will default to the NC position that allows compressor operation. But, try this...

    Check out the discharge air sensor, with it bad or disconnected, the module will think its ok to lock out the compressor, but stay in freeze protection mode and never open the damper.

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Southeastern Pa
    Posts
    32,184
    Post Likes
    An easy actuator test is to use a tweaker to turn the Min Pos pot clockwise, and see if the module will command the dampers to open, since minimum position is not dependent on mixed air.

    The other thing I do on dampers with linkage is to disconnect the bellcrank rod and try to open the dampers using hand pressure. You will quickly find out if they need cleaning or lubrication with dry silicone spray.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

    RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist
    Member, IAEI

    AOP Forum Rules:







  14. Likes buford liked this post.
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Contracting Business
HPAC Engineering
EC&M
CONTRACTOR