Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 27 to 39 of 45
  1. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    16
    Post Likes
    Thread Starter
    Sorry for the delay. Weather and work got in the way of my homeowner concerns. The TIM12 monitor arrived last week. I have it set for 15 minute intervals. It indicates 30%RH so far, but time (and logging) will give a better view.

    Quote Originally Posted by energy_rater_La View Post
    the fan in smaller attic should have been covered from inside the attic & spray foamed to completely seal it off from ambient air. in this smaller attic, as in the larger attic, the foam should make a complete seal from roofline to attic floor.
    The fan that remains is in a difficult area to work. Yes, I realize sometimes there is a reward for hard work, but I am skeptical about the benefits of this particular one. The area is at the very top of the house, and accessible only by 14”x 20” access panel. Foam was sprayed in this area. If more specific information (views) is warranted, let me know. Meanwhile, I offer the following:

    Picture of roof plan
    Name:  1_Roof_Plan.jpg
Views: 212
Size:  60.9 KB
    Picture of third floor plan
    Name:  2_Third_Floor_Plan.jpg
Views: 215
Size:  54.8 KB

    Quote Originally Posted by energy_rater_La View Post
    when you say that not only was the roofline sprayed, but also the verticle walls...these are exterior walls of the house? of the attic side of the walls in attic that have upstairs rooms on other side of walls?
    The only walls that were sprayed were in the attic (unfinished) area of the home. No walls of finished rooms were sprayed.

    Quote Originally Posted by energy_rater_La View Post
    for the crawlspace invoice...seal & insulate. insulate how? foundation walls? I see they removed insulation from floors which wouldn't be necessary in sealed & insulate crawlspace, just trying to understand how/what they insulated & with what.
    I assume you are curious about the type of insulation used in the “exterior penetrations and foundation vents”. This material used in the vents is ~7” thick with metallic barrier on either side. It is cut to fit and tightly inserted into each foundation vent. The external penetrations were sealed with some type of orange expanding foam. Regrettably, I have no further information on it. If I need to get it, just ask. I can go under the house for pics, but I do not expect to find any manufacturer information on the foam.

    Quote Originally Posted by energy_rater_La View Post
    so fan in a can is code? I've been wanting to use one for a while now..just haven't had the right house!
    I think the “code” reference was about getting the current furnace external air…but I have been wrong already today, and will certainly be wrong again.

    Quote Originally Posted by energy_rater_La View Post
    how much foam was installed? what type open cell...closed cell? is the install even looking or does it have dips & voids in it? between rafters is it level or does it belly in or out? are the rafters covered, sides & faces (flat 1 1/2" 'face of rafter that you see looking up at roof)?

    inches of foam & type will allow us to understand what R-value is. details of install will determine more info.

    can you post a few foam pics? close up of roofline to attic floor, and the one further back? pic of roofline install so we can get an idea of how well it was installed?
    From spray foam invoice:

    Application of Demelic Sealtection Seal 500 Open Cell Spray Foam Insulation as follows:

    Application of Spray foam directly onto accessible roof sheathing behind kneewalls in between rafters (with baffles installed) at a nominal thickness of +/- five and one half inches.

    Application of spray foam directly onto accessible gable ends at a nominal thickness of three and one half inches.

    Additional option to spray roof behind kneewalls in bonus room at a nominal thickness of +/- five inches.

    From power company rebate form (completed by spray foam installer):
    Pre-existing R-Value: 19
    Post-installation R-Value: 30
    1631 s.f. of insulation

    For what it is worth, the location of where these pictures were taken is indicated by the corresponding number on the first picture posted above ("Picture of roof plan"). Hopefully this provides the visual you seek.

    Name:  3_Knee_Wall.jpg
Views: 214
Size:  89.4 KBName:  4_Knee_Wall_closer.jpg
Views: 212
Size:  66.9 KBName:  5_Third_Floor_Attic.jpg
Views: 213
Size:  192.8 KBName:  6_Third_Floor_Roof_Line.jpg
Views: 214
Size:  116.4 KBName:  7_Roofline_to_Floor.jpg
Views: 215
Size:  97.0 KBName:  8_Roofline_to_Floor_closer.jpg
Views: 212
Size:  85.7 KBName:  9_roofline_toward_fan.jpg
Views: 214
Size:  79.5 KB

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    So. NH
    Posts
    826
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by tagb0000 View Post
    Today's Blower Door Test results: 3300 CFM @ 50 Pa.

    Test was done at single exterior door. The independent assessor did not believe doing a test at the third floor (attic) area would give any usable data. Further, he estimates there are about four (4) air changes per hour.

    His handheld (which I believe is this device) tester did not seem to indicate any measurable levels of CO. CO2 and other variables seemed to be "normal" according to his tester. Moments after he left - and moments before this posting - I ordered the TIM12.

    The assessor's recommendation was to skip the whole house dehumidifier and replace the 80% efficiency units - possibly starting with the second floor - and install a fresh air vent directly into the air handler. His logic was that a ~$2000 dehumidifier unit will only be used a small percentage of the time (in the most humid part of the summer). Whereas applying that money toward replacing the HVAC and air handler would be used year round AND it would be more energy efficient.

    I will try to post some pictures later today.
    4 air changes per hour!

    And he said nothing about this! If this is true it is clearly your problem and seriously question his competence.

    The spray foam could have been done better but but that blower door needs to be verified first.

  3. #29
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    south louisiana
    Posts
    3,792
    Post Likes
    you have a vented attic with foam. not an unvented foam sealed attic.

    "The independent assessor did not believe doing a test at the third floor (attic) area would give any usable data. Further, he estimates there are about four (4) air changes per hour."

    he is an idiot. just looking @ the pics...I see leakage.
    he should have tested the foam install. I'm sure you would
    have helped haul the equip up to the attic door, so he is lazy also.
    testing the attic would have shown the leakage areas I'll describe
    below.

    foam seals when it is installed correctly.
    foam sprayed to fiberglass batts doesn't seal. pic #7
    it sticks to the batts...but the fg batts don't air seal.
    the batts should have been moved back from the eaves
    of the roof so the foam could seal to the attic floor.

    if you have soffit vents, then they are still taking ambient
    air into the attic. not all of it can vent via foam sealed baffles
    (again foam against fg batts) to exit the open pav @ the part of the
    attic that would have required planning & extra work to seal.
    to the unsealed pav at the part of the roof. pic 9

    look at pic 3. the left part of the wall has spray foam that seals the
    roofline/eaves foam to the attic floor osb. (hopefully attic floor & not
    decking for storage...which would not provide a seal)
    to the right...you see that the foam stops, there is a gap between
    foam & attic floor, and no spray to osb that would close the gap & air
    seal.

    shoddy work with no true understanding of what the product can do
    when someone has the want to do it right & the work ethic to do the
    work to achieve it.

    pic 8 shows open voids in foam to batt "seal" you shouldn't see
    any of the wood in corner & each rafter bay should be filled at
    attic floor...after batts were removed.

    there should be no visible wood showing on the rafters, the
    rafter bays should have been filled completely, covering all wood.

    thats my take on it.


    foam is popular because we are too lazy to seal all the holes
    we make in ceilings, thermal bypasses that never get sealed.
    we the trades. foam is a coverall for all those mistakes.
    then we do whack stuff like put ducts & equip in attic.
    so foam covers the lack of planning & ignorance of design.

    if ambient air is entering the attic, you have humidity in the attic.
    (there is no IF to it...fwiw)
    air comes in via soffits, and exits at peak...pav.
    while your attic has an area for air to escape (pav) and maybe
    some of the soffits are sealed..it isn't sufficient to allow it to
    work as a conventionally vented attic. for a vented attic to
    actually vent there is a method to determine how much
    soffit vent ratio. the foam installer screwed that up big time.

    foam has changed the thermodynamics of your attic..and not
    in a good way.

    it can be fixed. but it is all in the prep work.
    pulling the batts out from the foam so the foam
    can go where it needs to go...to actually seal off the soffits.
    setting up work boards in attic so that peak can be accessed
    & the pav sealed.

    but you need problem solvers, not money grabbers.
    therein lies the problem. you need someone to oversee
    the foam installer and show him where to put the foam..
    as he doesn't understand that thinking & planning part of
    his foam & go job.
    the overseer of the fix up apparently it isn't your auditor.

    best of luck.
    The cure of the part should not be attempted without the cure of the whole. ~Plato

  4. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    So. NH
    Posts
    826
    Post Likes
    My feelings exactly Erla, I was so speechless that they seemed to think 4 ACH was OK I couldn't even type!

    Such a missed opportunity, shameful. Hope there is a chance they will remedy this.

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Arnold mo
    Posts
    3,974
    Post Likes
    I knew when ERLA saw those photo's she was going lay some knowledge down. She has demonstrated expertise in the area of spray foaming a home correctly; the OP should listen to her.

    This was an open & shut case as soon as I saw 70 RH in summer and 10Rh in winter.
    An answer without a question is meaningless.
    Information without understanding is useless.
    You can lead a horse to water............
    http://www.mohomeenergyaudits.com

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    16
    Post Likes
    Thread Starter
    I truly appreciate the knowledge about missed opportunities. This will be helpful if/when we build another house. Meanwhile, we still seek strategies to correct or compensate the current conditions.

    Early in this thread Teddy Bear wanted to know CO2 levels along with temp and RH. A glitch in the meter caused the loss of a several day’s worth of data. Without further ado, here is the graph. Raw data is available for anyone who requests it. Sample rate was one minute, temp, RH and CO2. The next sampling will be a longer rate, such as every ten minutes. I am open for suggestions for different sample rates.

    Data was collected over a five day period, on first floor, near center of home, a few feet from thermostat.

    Highlights of the captured data, (highest/lowest):
    Temp: 74.2/68.7
    CO2: 669/404
    RH: 35/22.1

    Name:  Capture.PNG
Views: 246
Size:  85.0 KB

  7. #33
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    south louisiana
    Posts
    3,792
    Post Likes
    "Meanwhile, we still seek strategies to correct or compensate the current conditions."

    have spray foam job fixed. remove batts foam to attic floor.
    seal off attic fan & "ventilation" from attic below to this area.
    re-spray foam connection from roofline to attic floor.
    The cure of the part should not be attempted without the cure of the whole. ~Plato

  8. #34
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Madison, WI/Cape Coral, FL
    Posts
    9,765
    Post Likes
    Here is my take on the blower door test. 50 Pa is typically like +23 mph wind. Estimating the natural at the average winter temp and average wind is estimated by dividing by +-20. 4 ACH would become .2 ACH at your average winter condition. This an ok number for good air tight homes. It also indicates that if the air leaks are located randomly throughout the home, you will get an air change in 4-5 hours. It's adequate fresh air during the average winter conditions. During colder/winder you will get more natural infiltration/ventilation. Also indicates that you will have inadequate fresh air during the calm, moderate weather and normal use of the home.
    The CO2 will demonstrate the effective amount of fresh air that you receive during various weather condition and operation of the different ventilation devices in your home.
    First step is to determine your outside CO2 ppm levels. They are typically 400-500 ppm. Consider that an unoccupied home will be the same as outside. An average produces a specific amount of CO2. The increase of CO2 over longer term indicates the amount of fresh air passing through your home. You will see that your CO2 rises over time with occupancy. After several hours of steady occupancy and thorough mixing of the air in your home, you will see a meaningful CO2 ppm that can be use to indicate the amount of fresh air that is passing through your home. Devices like the kitchen hood and clothes drier affect the amount of air flowing through the home.
    The following chart indicate the cfm of fresh air passing through the home.
    ]nside CO2 levels CFM of fresh air per occupant
    450 100s when or unoccupied
    650 53
    800 30
    1000 19
    1250 14
    1500 10
    2000 7

    Checking the levels in the early morning will give a good idea of how many cfm of fresh air is passing through the house. The doors should be open and cycling of heating/cooling blower will make the reading more accurate.
    Occupants hanging around the meter will raise the reading as if all are in a remote location will lower the meter reading.
    Looking at the lowest CO2 levels 450 ppm assuming unoccupied, your outside CO2 is typical
    Your typical early morning readings are 550 ppm indicating about +53 cfm of fresh air per occupant.
    By calculating the volume of your home, dividing the total volume by (the no. of occupants X the CFM of fresh air) provides the minutes to get a real air change in the home.
    Lets discuss the your estimate of what is really happening. Usually you find that home get plenty of fresh air during cold windy weather but need full mechanical fresh air during calm, moderate temps.
    Thanks for take the initiative to get to the bottom of this.
    Regards TB
    Bear Rules: Keep our home <50% RH summer, controls mites/mold and very comfortable.
    Provide 60-100 cfm of fresh air when occupied to purge indoor pollutants and keep window dry during cold weather. T-stat setup/setback +8 hrs. saves energy
    Use +Merv 10 air filter. -Don't forget the "Golden Rule"

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    16
    Post Likes
    Thread Starter
    Quote Originally Posted by energy_rater_La View Post

    have spray foam job fixed. remove batts foam to attic floor.
    seal off attic fan & "ventilation" from attic below to this area.
    re-spray foam connection from roofline to attic floor.
    I went back and re-read your postings. Drilling in on the "need[ing] problem solvers, not money grabbers" comment, I admit the call to the spray foam vendor might have been ill-advised. However, that is not an open ticket for money grabbing or shoddy work. I am not beyond contacting him again to correct the installation. Before I do, I want to be more informed.

    I believe the blower door test was not suggested on the attic area is because the attic area is not 100% sealed – due to the water heaters. Can the attic be fully sealed if there are gas water heaters present? (There are two.)

    What are “changes per hour”? Why is that important? What are acceptable limits? How do "changes per hour" impact relative humidity?

  10. #36
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    NORTHERN
    Posts
    1,178
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by tagb0000 View Post
    HVAC newbie ....Are there any other considerations not mentioned?
    http://stream2.cma.gov.cn/pub/comet/...int.htm#z3_1_3

    ~

    and searching H'-T' for dew point and relative humidity yields many decent posts
    Process cooling: NO COMPRESSORS Earth-Coupled since 1996
    ... however, much still needs to be hybridized energy transfer.

    CLOSED LOOP 2015 listed EER's
    even 49+ now; and "blended from low to high variable speeds" for 32deg.F ~ E-Star

    Perhaps you need a 32F Chiller/HW-Heat: buy a GEO-T Heat Pump (GHP with Heat-Recovery)
    http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?...mal_heat_pumps

    http://www.hydro-temp.com/products.html and Bosch/Carrier and AquasystemsInc.com

  11. #37
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    NORTHERN
    Posts
    1,178
    Post Likes

    AIR INFILTRATION DEW POINT and dont

    Quote Originally Posted by tagb0000 View Post
    ... a better view.

    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by energy_rater_La View Post
    you have a vented attic with foam. ....thinking & planning part of
    his foam & go job.
    the overseer of the fix up apparently it isn't your auditor.

    best of luck.
    Excellent ER and Tips right off the OP!!

    such exposure by ER, clear to see, of~ have been told with foam...(& go)


    And yes to saintVC

    Another air-infiltration calc by BTUH for load studies has had in80 degree diff of say -10f out and 70f in , by temperature- design loading considerations:
    a "loose home" at about 3.1/2 btuh/sqft of the SURFACE area of the envelope since (if without a blower door test) things like rectangular homes leak more at general times, more walls more windows ((yes all can be picked out, but for this...)) leak more than say a square home (borg cube) of less surface areas...

    To try to clarify this in other words: It is for comparison only---
    guessing that your 4400 above grade may have surface area of all near 6000 sq ft x 3.1/2 to show some work (of 60+40x2x18 +2400 roof)

    is about 21000 btuh ; then that would be playing with divide by 1.08 ~ and divide by 80 for est UNDER 250 CFM (!) in a "Loose" 1980's home ... I understand it could be 400 cfm, but COMPARING to "4 ACH or did he mean .4 ...?
    Then: 250 x 60 min = 15000 cu ft / hr loose 4400- 4800 sq ft home...
    40 x 60 x 18 for a cube of 4800x 9ft walls avg.. living sq ft but ~ I have considered another est of 3 ft above grad to plate (?) of the basement wall if over a basement...
    for residence over basement exposed ~ 43,000 sq ft UNDER 3 AirChg/Hr ACH is a very loose even for a large home, I have found (other than a log cabin of FELT AIR LEAKS ALONG WALLS over 5 ACH/hr, but now please forget that DIY ...)

    So even by a btuh comparable when I have to estimate .7 to 3.1/2 btuh / sq ft GUESSING at a tightness in a hurry leads to comparing in tight-to-loose old retrofitted 20 to 100 year old homes to that of .6 or .7 ACH to that just under 3 ACH - being really so nowadays, very loose. But I use that since having over 4000 heat load studies done and have had plenty of tracking to see since the early 80's that a solar retrofit company hit the effect of just 4 o 6 collectors very closer than a then manual J came even near to, and verified by all-electric homes forced-air heating tracking throughout, also (there easi-er to 'graph' building/insulation and duct-distribution deviations).

    UNDER 3 AirChg/Hr ACH is a very loose even for a large home
    Last edited by GT1980; 03-04-2014 at 07:26 PM. Reason: emphz
    Process cooling: NO COMPRESSORS Earth-Coupled since 1996
    ... however, much still needs to be hybridized energy transfer.

    CLOSED LOOP 2015 listed EER's
    even 49+ now; and "blended from low to high variable speeds" for 32deg.F ~ E-Star

    Perhaps you need a 32F Chiller/HW-Heat: buy a GEO-T Heat Pump (GHP with Heat-Recovery)
    http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?...mal_heat_pumps

    http://www.hydro-temp.com/products.html and Bosch/Carrier and AquasystemsInc.com

  12. #38
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    NORTHERN
    Posts
    1,178
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by tagb0000 View Post
    A ))) gas water heaters present? (There are two.)

    b))) What are “changes per hour”? Why is that important? What are acceptable limits? How do "changes per hour" impact relative humidity?
    if one can get to everything there , yes some appliances can be relatively "sealed" if off, etc..

    b)
    the more air infiltrating on a 5 deg f day say at 30% hum , then expands inside in70f , if 5x's to under 6% hum

    1/2 air change / hr would be 8x's better than 4 AC/hr. on helping out to control RelHum... etc again:


    http://stream2.cma.gov.cn/pub/comet/...int.htm#z3_1_3
    Process cooling: NO COMPRESSORS Earth-Coupled since 1996
    ... however, much still needs to be hybridized energy transfer.

    CLOSED LOOP 2015 listed EER's
    even 49+ now; and "blended from low to high variable speeds" for 32deg.F ~ E-Star

    Perhaps you need a 32F Chiller/HW-Heat: buy a GEO-T Heat Pump (GHP with Heat-Recovery)
    http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?...mal_heat_pumps

    http://www.hydro-temp.com/products.html and Bosch/Carrier and AquasystemsInc.com

  13. #39
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    south louisiana
    Posts
    3,792
    Post Likes
    sure you can seal off attic with gas waterheaters. you just add combustion air
    to the waterheaters. while the opening for the air is open, it is air sealed around the piping.
    this is allowable leakage, whereas foam insulation @ fiberglass batts are NOT! (LOL!)

    now there are ways to have combustion air open only when gas water heaters are calling
    for combustion air, but they are expensive, and how do you know when they fail?
    I find it better to just add a 4" duct (rigid dryer venting works perfectly) from soffit
    to water heater...low on attic floor where flame of water heater is...not off attic floor.

    then to blower door test, simply tape off the combustion air ducts @ water heaters.
    when you are ready to tackle getting this done...repost or drop me an email.
    I'll walk you through what to have the blower door company do. the foam installer
    should be on hand also...ready to foam, and then re-test.
    its a pita...but I do it often. paint cans in hand to mark leakage, crawling around on
    attic floor...its a get r done thing. and we get it done!

    I know we have hit you with a lot of stuff, and kudos to you for hanging in...
    if you read any article @ www.buildingscience.com on unvented foam sealed attics
    they all say...attic must be air tight. this is the first & most important thing to happen.
    otherwise...all kinds of crap can follow.

    I always test foam sealed attics, this is how I've learned what leaks. just looking
    at the few pics tells the tale. leaving the pav in the peak of the roof with leakage
    at soffits is moving air through the attic.

    best of luck.
    The cure of the part should not be attempted without the cure of the whole. ~Plato

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Contracting Business
HPAC Engineering
EC&M
CONTRACTOR