Professional Member*
I'm really impressed with the York dealer. I wonder if he has the same "pride" in his installs as he takes with his "detailed" proposal. I guess if the customer has any problems with the installation he can just say, "was it listed in the proposal".
Professional Member*
Retired most be nice! Lol... Still sharp though it was only with X13 motors no variable speeds I saw unless customer was looking at a Trane XR17 then it shows a few variable speed matchups in (4) ton not (5) ton..,Originally Posted by George2
That's just it with no model #'s none of us no if its (2) stage a/c, variable speed (2) stage furnace etc.... It's just states that they will install what is on the paper or print out. So who knows what he is getting????
Regular Guest
The Goodman contractor will be meeting with us tonight, but the York dealer came back with an updated offer that's $600 less than the Goodman quote. This is now putting pressure on us to decide whether to cancel Goodman coming over for the final measurements tonight (and hurt any possible relationship), or moving forward. The York contractor had prior business with my parents before, but the Goodman one was top-rated on Angies List one of the years since they were on the list.
The Goodman vendor wrote back and provided these models:
Goodman 80% furnace, 80,000 btu capacity, GMVC80805CX with a Vari-speed blower
Goodman 16 SEER, 12.5 EER, 4 ton condenser, GSX160481F
Aspen evaporator coil, 4 ton, CE48G44210 16 SEER
The York dealer came back as well with an updated proposal, and this time he had time to type it up. Models:
Coil: CHG00C6
Furnace: TMLX100C20MP11
Condenser: YCJF60S41S1
EDIT: AHRI cert to be provided "from York" (in his own words)
EDIT: Honeywell VisionPro 8000 available
The only concern I have is how thorough the York contractor will be with the installation (he's only got state cert), and whether not having lifetime heat exchanger (Goodman includes it) should be an issue. Further, Goodman vendor is NATE certified, continues his education, and is part of the Edison (utility company) education program.
As always, appreciate all comments and thoughts. We're inclined to go with York now -- not only is the new quote almost the same as the Goodman, it's also $600 less, AND from what I've read, most people prefer York over Goodman.
Last edited by hksscom; 12-02-2013 at 04:53 PM. Reason: Added York models & AHRI detail
Global Moderator
I wouldn't worry about the lack of lifetime HX warranty. Most people who lose a HX on something that old replace it anyway.
But why a local contractor doesn't have a "relationship" with the electric company to get rebates for their customers is strange.
The Venstar is a nice stat. What's the Goodman dealer offering for a control?
Professional Member*
If the Goodman dealer is able to get you the SCE Rebate they must be an A/C Quality Installation Contractor- If they are they will be doing a Man J and Man S as well as OEM Commissioning etc- It is required as part of the program- Not sure how they have quoted tonnage before doing the Man J and S - We are an A/C Quality contractor and do not quote tonnages- We do not do our calculations until after the project has been approved. We spend 4-6 hours with our details ( We wont do block loads) I Have a pretty good idea of what size it will calc to after the initial survey.
Please dont go on price but proper sizing, installation and verification- If Your Goodman Dear is SCE Approved ( and they probably are) they will be doing things the right way- Just curious as to why they dont mention anything about the Energy Start A/C Quality Installation Protocol, I know we do
On a side note Carrier can hit 16 and 17 SEER in 4 ton no problem
Regular Guest
BL, Goodman's offering the Honeywell FocusPro 6000, but I asked to upgrade to the VisionPro 8000. I figure that the Honeywell app probably will be better (and more widely supported across various mobile devices) than Venstar (I've never heard of Venstar.)
The York dealer is from another county (Riverside County) vs Goodman (Orange County). Maybe that's why they don't have a relationship with Edison, though I'd think that Edison operates in that county too?
Ika, Goodman did mention about that Quality Installation factor during our initial consultation. Overall, my wife and I have had better feelings about the Goodman company because of all the education, credentials, and Angie's List rating. They were also the ones who took the time to educate us about SEER, Furnace efficiency, rebate programs, why Bond insurance should stay low (higher insurance usually means higher number of incidents/claims, he claimed), and even provided us with a copy of Consumer Reports articles on choosing furnaces. They just seemed much more thorough and educated.
The York dealer has nothing to offer but pricing, a relationship with my parents from another job -- and all he has is a State license. The CA license board shows both of them having a $12,500 bond insurance. The Goodman dealer has been in business longer.
From a pricing perspective, York quote comes ahead, as well as York's reputation over Goodman. From a "feel good" perspective, we feel better about the Goodman contractor and that he'd probably do a better job installing.
Professional Member*
see the attached
Professional Member*
You need to sign up with the utility company to be apart of the program. I had to sign up for a company that I worked for because I got all the out-of-town sales calls. The owner was totally clueless.
Regular Guest
BTU, funny :P
So, we decided to go with the Goodman proposal. For the sake of those who are reading this thread and are wondering the same thing about which way to go, here are the reasons for why we chose Goodman over the York proposal:
1. From what I've learned through HVAC-TALK (thanks a lot for this site!), installation quality should be more important than equipment quality or brand name. A properly-sized and installed "lower-end" system is better than a "higher-end" system installed or sized poorly for your home. A system sized too large for your home will make the system turn on/off more often, resulting in faster wear and tear. Further, as the Goodman vendor ("Goodman") explained, too large systems may cool the house too quickly, not allowing for the humidity to dissipate properly. This will leave you with an icky feeling. Thankfully, this isn't so much of a problem in Southern California. Be sure to get the AHRI certificates for your appliances -- they prove that your system indeed perform at the level the manufacturer claims it does. For higher SEER ACs, according to Goodman contractor (I think he said 16+), AHRI is superseded by EnergyStar rating.
2. Check the contractor's state license. Goodman told us during the initial meeting that a low Bond insurance value could indicate that the company hasn't been sued much. The more the company gets sued/claimed against, the more California will require the Bond insurance to go up. Both vendors had a bond insurance of $12,500, if I remember right.
3. Goodman seemed very thorough and detail-oriented. At both visits, he spent hours educating us on a variety of topics, and answered every question we had.
4. Goodman seemed more educated: they possess NATE, NRI certification, are rated highly on Angie's List with a lot of reviews, and supposedly put their employees through various education programs. Further, they are educated by Edison (local utility company) and participate in that Quality Installation program -- a requirement, I think, to get the Edison rebate. The York person also seemed knowledgeable, but had no credentials (besides a State license) to back that up.
5. Goodman's proposal always looked more professional. Joking aside and to be fair, the hand-written note was provided because my parents asked the contractor on-the-spot to write one. He did provide formatted proposals in Word. Goodman's office address was his personal home. York's address was a PO Box. PO Boxes are difficult to trace, should the vendor disappear. Thankfully, we did not find any complaints or negative reviews on either vendor. I understand that PO Box addresses are for privacy reasons, but I tend to question them.
6. Price difference between Goodman vs York proposal was about $600. We put more value into the thoroughness and apparent competency of Goodman vs trying to save $600. We still do not know, however, whether York is better of a brand than Goodman. It seems that every manufacturer has its good and bad points. There's no "perfect" brand, at least for the lower-end/mid-range market.
7. Goodman was going to go through 3 inspections, vs York's 2, as follows. Goodman: they measure the house dimensions, put together the calculations and engineering drawing. Edison approves/denies proposal. Once approved, installation is performed, HERS pressure testing is done (by a 3rd party), Edison inspector USUALLY comes to verify that everything is to proposed spec, and City inspector comes to verify safety. York: measure house dimensions, install system, test HERS pressure, and City inspector comes to verify safety.
8. York vendor insisted that 5 tons (specifically, 4.5 tons) is appropriate for our home due to the high ceilings. This concerned us because the existing system is 3 tons (if I remember right), and every other contractor quoted 4 tons. See #1 for why 5 tons was concerning. We'll see what Goodman draws up with the engineering drawing, and what Edison approves.
9. Though my parents had a previous-job relationship with the York vendor, we felt that Goodman would be doing a better, more thorough job overall. We understand that the York vendor would probably have a more personal interest (due to prior-relationship and knowing my parents for years) in ensuring that his system would work well, and we really tried to go forward with him, but in the end, Goodman's credentials, Angie's List reviews, and thoroughness won us over.
10. Quotes received from other vendors made us pass them: (a) one was very cheap -- about 40% less than everybody else. He was very highly rated on Angie's List as the least expensive with good work, but his dismissal that City Permits are waste of money and are not needed -- when we specifically told him that safety is a huge concern for us with furnances (after all, our existing one is a recalled unit from the late 1990s) -- made us question him having our interest in mind. A quote much lower than everyone else should always raise a flag as well. His proposal was hand-written on an invoice-like, carbon-copy document, and was very difficult to read (vendors: please write clearly!) He reminded us of a flower vendor we had nightmares with for our wedding -- that "something is wrong" feeling, when you have it, trust it. You don't want to second-guess yourself. (b) Some other vendors just came by and gave us their proposal without asking about home size, and other basic questions they probably should ask to draw up their proposal. I won't go into detail on the other proposals (there's no need to.)
11. Get multiple quotes! Ask each vendor questions! You will be surprised how much you will learn or how much misinformation will be given to you. As we got more educated, we believe we've made better choices. This forum gave us good things to ask/look for, and the Goodman vendor gave us the best answers -- whether he was 100% right, we don't know, but he made sense and had documents to back up his claims (and I cross-verified some of them by browsing the web and this forum.) The more vendors you see, the more ideas you'll get, the more you can get a system designed the way that may be best for you.
12. Goodman lives and specializes in the County we live in. He was very familiar with the City codes and knew right away what would and wouldn't work (example: the SEER16 AC would violate code if we were to install it at the same place as the current AC. He'll let us know how much it'll cost to move the AC to the backyard. This unknown cost scares us!) York vendor was from another County, and did not entirely know the City codes. In his defense, we don't fault him for that -- he specializes in another County after all.
Hope this helps whoever else is looking through this thread and in trying to decide which proposal to go forward with. Many, many thanks to all the professionals who frequent this site! You guys rock and helped educate us SO MUCH about HVAC!
Last edited by hksscom; 12-03-2013 at 01:28 PM. Reason: Added bond insurance value, summary of other vendors' quotes
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