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Thread: INFO: Appion G5 Twin and other recovery machines, test result discussion

  1. #41
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    Any guess to what the problem is with Eddie's G5?
    For it to take that long something seems wrong from what I'm used to seeing.
    Love my G5
    Can't wait for the G10

  2. #42
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    No G10. I haven't broke in my G5 yet. Best recovery unit in the world. I would like to try the vacuum pump, but I bought JB 10 cfm the same time as I bought the appion G5. Spent Way to much on tools and equipment last year.
    Quote Originally Posted by itsiceman View Post
    Any guess to what the problem is with Eddie's G5?
    For it to take that long something seems wrong from what I'm used to seeing.
    Love my G5
    Can't wait for the G10

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by itsiceman View Post
    Any guess to what the problem is with Eddie's G5?
    For it to take that long something seems wrong from what I'm used to seeing.
    Love my G5
    Can't wait for the G10
    I can't speak with certainty about what went wrong in Eddie & Fritz's video, since we were never involved... But, for one thing, they did point out that there were core depressors in the hose fittings.

    Some of the things I would want to know:
    - What was the condition of the liquid port "straw" in the tank?
    - Was there any condensation at any of the fittings?
    - How was the starting condition of the G5Twin verified?

    If the G5 in the video wasn't in good pumping condition, it's hardly a fair representation of the product in general.

    As to the condensation question... pulling liquid through at that speed through restrictions (core depressors, liquid "straw," clogged input fitting/filter screen) can easily cause frozen spots that create a huge restriction. So, the fast liquid speed at the start, and not removing those restrictions, could easily cause the results as shown, as the connections would be nearly frozen shut, temporarily. This can also cause a dramatic rise in recovery tank temps, since you end up pulling only vapor once the liquid has frozen. Whatever the case, this video does not reflect our expectations, the years of field use, or even the lab tests... which, I should point out, are about 4 times faster than what was shown. And a lab test doesn't even do any tank cooling!

    Lab rates for the G5Twin (which allow for no external cooling efforts) moving 10 lbs. would peg the transfer at:
    - 3 lbs @ 6.22 lbs/min (liquid): about 30 seconds
    - 7 lbs @ 0.62 lbs/min (vapor): about 11 min 20 seconds

    Using 3/8" hoses, I've done a 10 lb. transfer test in under 10 minutes.

    Tank-to-tank transfer is not an easy test comparison to make, as the AHRI 740 standardized test has proved. In that test, the same machine, same setup, and same controls can generate very inconsistent results pretty easily. What I see in that video has nowhere near the level of "control" to ensure a truly fair test. What was the ambient temp? Tank temp at start? What was the tank temp at any given time? These are just a few of the things measured and monitored in the standard test.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appion-ChrisP View Post
    If someone's unit isn't working as we claim, they should call us so we can do our jobs to provide support and assistance, and help them get to the intended results.
    My G5 has always worked great, but what is you ph no just in case?
    -Marty

  5. #45
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    Our phone is 303-937-1580, email is support@appioninc.com, and that's also our website address.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appion-ChrisP View Post
    As I often say about myself, you seem to know just enough to be dangerous.

    The G5Twin/G1Single compressors handle liquid better because they don't have wrist pins and bushings in the pistons, and the load is spread out, as opposed to compressors that use wrist pins, bushings, and single-point loading on the bearings... there is still a very high compression ratio in G5/G1 units, which is what generates all that heat you keep pointing out!
    I trust that you know about the Appion machines much more than I do given your position. I have not torn down enough recovery machines to say with authority what designs are used in machines currently on market. I think that's a fairer way to qualify the comparison to current production units. It's not fair to compare against older units that is to be replaced. The Fluoro-Tech machine that I tore down was built in late 1990s. I don't know the design life cycle but I'm guessing it is probably 1980s or 1990s design. It uses Gardner Denver's Thomas WOB-L compressor. Several other manufacturers use their compressor as OEM including Yellow Jacket and CPS. It does not have wrist pins or piston end bushing and the single piston design uses a counter weight that weighs around a pound and uses a 1/2 hp 3450 motor dedicated to compressor. Anodized forged aluminum cylinder, machined aluminum head. It uses spring loaded poppet valves just like yours. The piston ring is seamless and conical shaped held down with a large screw. Friction surface seems to be made of sintered bronze. What is the material used for piston rings on Appion G5 Twin? The piston attaches to motor shaft with a large ball bearing that is used in automotive engine crankshafts.

    Big condensers will not reach their maximum efficiency with low airflow... they NEED to be big and heavy so that the refrigerant stays in them long enough to get some kind of cooling, since a significant portion of the large condensers reach a high heat, and the low airflow provided cannot remove the heat effectively. Longer tubing accommodates low airflow.
    I believe a testing needs to be done at one point.

    The G5's condensers are working pretty efficiently for every inch of tubing, because of the cooling airflow... roughly 4-8x more airflow than "muffin" fans provide. Also, the high static pressure of the airflow in the G5 forces the air through more effectively. I've seen several other brand's machines that the "exhaust" of the cooling airflow can barely make a piece of paper wiggle, while the G5 and G1 will bend a piece of paper completely horizontal when the paper is placed at the exhaust ports.
    Doesn't the fan consume more energy meaning reduction in motor power available to compressor since Appion shares the motor for the fan? The "muffin" fans don't sap power from compressor. I believe transmission failure is a fairly common issue on the G5 Twin.

    So, it's not that other machines aren't capable of doing recovery, it's a matter of a tech deciding what is important to them in their efforts to get a fast recovery speed. Some guys are willing to put the tank in a bucket of ice, some aren't. Some guys are willing to take out valve cores and other restrictions, others prefer to expect faster speeds through a tiny orifice (who needs physics)?
    You emphasize weight, but what does it weigh after you consider the weight of ice bags? Which "other machines" are based on wrist pinned piston with bronze bushings and reed valves?


    And some are willing to cart around 100+ lb. machines, and deal with maintenance hassles when vapor recovery machines are slammed with liquid... but we designed our machines for those who aren't.
    My Fluoro-Tech FM3600 isn't anything close to that weight. Those 100+ lb machines you're comparing to have additional capabilities like coalescent oil filter, very large core and recirculation system to recycle the refrigerant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Appion-ChrisP View Post
    I understand your wariness. We have this specific Seal Kit (Part # KTG515) because of the common issues I described above in Post #35. This kind of seal wear happens on all recovery machines, but shows up differently on our machine because we don't "hide" the leaks by routing them into the compressor crankcase... we keep ALL refrigerant out of the crankcase to prevent seized bearings and crank damage.
    I don't think "hide" is a fair description. Syringe rubber seals have no blow-by, but doesn't resist chemicals. The piston rings in engines don't have a perfect seal and there is some blow by which is why cars recover crankcase gas into intake by a PCV valve. If the piston rings were perfect and there was blow-bys, crankcase can be completely sealed. Metal based piston cylinders DO NOT experience swelling and deterioration from exposures to stagnation in refrigerant vapor and your description that this kind of wear happens on all recovery machine is inaccurate. O-ring type permits looser machining tolerance on cylinder and reduces manufacturing cost.

    I am wondering if you're in Sales & Marketing or are you in technical or engineering capacity at Appion?

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICanHas View Post
    I am wondering if you're in Sales & Marketing or are you in technical or engineering capacity at Appion?
    Somewhere in this or other threads there was a link to a patent which bears his name along with another but I'm not sure if that defines his job at Appion.
    Bill

  8. #48
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    Does ICanHas go out of his way to make things difficult, where it's not necessary?

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jared Fetter View Post
    Does ICanHas go out of his way to make things difficult, where it's not necessary?
    I made this thread to discuss differences in recovery machines specifically comparing to Appion G5 Twin which is apparently thought of as the holy grail of recovery machine by some. Having personally done a tear down on a Fluorotech, I think its perfectly fine to challenge Appion rep's position that their products are better due to lack of wrist pin when I didn't find a wrist pin in the Fluorotech.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICanHas View Post
    I made this thread to discuss differences in recovery machines specifically comparing to Appion G5 Twin which is apparently thought of as the holy grail of recovery machine by some. Having personally done a tear down on a Fluorotech, I think its perfectly fine to challenge Appion rep's position that their products are better due to lack of wrist pin when I didn't find a wrist pin in the Fluorotech.
    There are numerous reasons why the Fluorotech machine you describe was not seen as a reliable, fast, or ideal recovery machine. The compressor that you described is a modified air compressor, typically with valving in the machine that is intended to prevent liquid refrigerant from entering the compressor (see Ritchie's "CPR" valve). These compressors are generally known to have longevity issues if they are faced with too much liquid refrigerant. A pretty common sentiment, even on these forums, is that the G5Twin handles liquid quite well.

    When I am discussing face-to-face with contractors, I have no problem sharing what I know. And when someone is trying to understand enough to make an informed decision, or to better understand how to make their tools work, I share what I reasonably can to help them out. However, I'm not inclined to discuss the fine details of the engineering behind a patented product with an anonymous poster on a public forum who seems to be after more than just a better understanding.

    I can't tell if you are trying to smear Appion or our products, or if you are trying to get engineering details out us that no contractor would ever need, but many of your statements are inaccurate and biased at best.

    Quote Originally Posted by ICanHas View Post
    I am wondering if you're in Sales & Marketing or are you in technical or engineering capacity at Appion?
    Based on your line of questioning, I am wondering what your role in this industry is? Aside from any tech work in the field you MAY be doing, who are you working for, and what are you really trying to accomplish?

  11. #51
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    The thing is for my money the G5 is the holy grail in recovery machines. I bought my first machain in (I think) 94. It was a piece of crap from united. Heavy and slow, then I bought something from Simonds, heavy and slow, but was still working when I bought the G5, sold on Ebay. The next was something from Amp Probe. That was not quite as heavy but was slow. My last and I hope my forever unit is the G5. Three words to describe it fast, light, and dependable.
    Quote Originally Posted by ICanHas View Post
    I made this thread to discuss differences in recovery machines specifically comparing to Appion G5 Twin which is apparently thought of as the holy grail of recovery machine by some. Having personally done a tear down on a Fluorotech, I think its perfectly fine to challenge Appion rep's position that their products are better due to lack of wrist pin when I didn't find a wrist pin in the Fluorotech.

  12. #52
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    second that, and there customer service is second to none! PERIOD
    btw, you know who christian is, who are you? surelly your parents didnt name you icanhas...

  13. #53
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    “If You Can Dodge A Wrench You Can Dodge A Ball”

  14. #54
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    LOL EXACTLLY

  15. #55
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    the dudes are emerging

  16. #56
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    again i have to hand it to the guys over at Appion, the BEST CUSTOMER SERVICE i've ever seen, next to myself of course :^) thanks again guys!!!!!!!

  17. #57
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    finally purchased an Appion G5 ..

  18. #58
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    I think that's the first time I've seen iCanHas get "burned" with no rebuttal.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appion-ChrisP View Post
    I can't speak with certainty about what went wrong in Eddie & Fritz's video, since we were never involved... But, for one thing, they did point out that there were core depressors in the hose fittings.

    Some of the things I would want to know:
    - What was the condition of the liquid port "straw" in the tank?
    - Was there any condensation at any of the fittings?
    - How was the starting condition of the G5Twin verified?

    If the G5 in the video wasn't in good pumping condition, it's hardly a fair representation of the product in general.

    As to the condensation question... pulling liquid through at that speed through restrictions (core depressors, liquid "straw," clogged input fitting/filter screen) can easily cause frozen spots that create a huge restriction. So, the fast liquid speed at the start, and not removing those restrictions, could easily cause the results as shown, as the connections would be nearly frozen shut, temporarily. This can also cause a dramatic rise in recovery tank temps, since you end up pulling only vapor once the liquid has frozen. Whatever the case, this video does not reflect our expectations, the years of field use, or even the lab tests... which, I should point out, are about 4 times faster than what was shown. And a lab test doesn't even do any tank cooling!

    Lab rates for the G5Twin (which allow for no external cooling efforts) moving 10 lbs. would peg the transfer at:
    - 3 lbs @ 6.22 lbs/min (liquid): about 30 seconds
    - 7 lbs @ 0.62 lbs/min (vapor): about 11 min 20 seconds

    Using 3/8" hoses, I've done a 10 lb. transfer test in under 10 minutes.

    Tank-to-tank transfer is not an easy test comparison to make, as the AHRI 740 standardized test has proved. In that test, the same machine, same setup, and same controls can generate very inconsistent results pretty easily. What I see in that video has nowhere near the level of "control" to ensure a truly fair test. What was the ambient temp? Tank temp at start? What was the tank temp at any given time? These are just a few of the things measured and monitored in the standard test.
    sure is good to see someone refute the claimed G5 40 minute transfer times for 10lb in OP and was performed in less than ideal conditions ...

  20. #60
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    All I know is that I have had the G5 for about 3 and 1/2 years and couldn't be happier with it. Since 93 or so when the first one I had was one by United refrigeration I have gone through quite a few. My thought are the G5 is the best recovery unit EVER.
    Now if only my JB 10 cf would blow up so I could get the TEZ 8. Still the JB will most likely outlast me. (:-

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