My (Expensive) Experience with Geothermal

[JohnGuc]

Well so far the contractor Im looking at seems to check out
BBB looks good A+ no complaints(0) for a while that would seem rare even for a Good contractor
Their own website shows theyve been in business for about 30 years
Geo since 1985 they are even a loop installer
Plan to ask for references
Hoping they give me a detailed design instead of just copying size I had
That would give me more confidence
Im in Ohio interested if they have had coil failures here
Seem to be a lot in Fla
I dont need any new equipement drama

[CallaDrilling]

Just a heads up,
BBB is joke nowadays, it nothing more than a place for homeowners to complain. It's not the reputable organization it used to be.
Asking a company for references is a false sense of security, no company will ever send you a reference from a unhappy customer! They will always forward the contact info from customers who loved them!
Your best bet is find somebody who you know personally or professionally who has worked with this company in the past for a true evaluation of a company.

[JohnGuc]

All Valid points Ive even seen the BBB faults youve mentioned with another contractor had an A+ rating
But had job go south on him He did try to make it right but failed
So BBB isnt perfect but expect it would weed out the total bums
Unfortunately everyone I have talked to that had Geo around me has has it 15 plus years and dont even know the installer
Their houses were bought with it already installed
So Im somewhat limited in vetting him
Mostly going to use the info learned here to see if he trys blows smoke up my leg

[Goldfinch]

Goldfinch,

We are sorry to hear that you have had a bad experience with your WaterFurnace equipment, and would like to look into your concerns further. Please provide your model and serial numbers, as well as the name of the contractor you are working with. If you do not wish to post this information publicly, please feel free to send us a private message.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

I replied to this yesterday, but for some reason it didn't get posted.

I have an AT040 (I believe, it was supposed to be an AT045) and an AT019 which is where the problem is. I can't get to that unit because of where it's located, but as far as I know that's what was specified in the contract and I believe that is what is installed.

I actually had just changed to a new contractor, HVAC by JM who, for the first time, I actually felt good about the technician. But whether they still are is debatable. When I called about the problem Miles came out. This was on July 26. After looking at the unit he asked to see the pump for it. I showed him my pump. He said "No, I mean the pump for the upstairs unit". I explained that the one pump is the only one I have. He looked at the pump, looked at me, looked back at the pump and started mumbling over and over "This is a new one on me, I've never seen this before". He was visibly stunned. He said he was going to leave and give the unit time to cool down, but would come back the next day (July 27) and try to get it started. He never returned nor called. I finally called him on August 2nd. He said that he had been slammed, but would try to stop by on that Sunday. I've never heard from him since and it's been just shy of a month now. I'm certain that when he left my house that he called his WF contact, who told him that there's bad problem with me and to stay away, which he's done. So I really don't have anyone I'm working with now.

[JohnGuc]

wow thats terrible if they are really blackballing you with your contractors
Definitely making me rethink waterfurnace

[JohnGuc]

Had what I think to be a strange experience with the contractor that was to come out and give me an estimate today on Geo

When he got there he was pretty much trying to talk me out of it in favor of a more efficient air to air heat pump then what I had
And going with all electric heat pump including backup heat
Kept trying to steer him back to Geo but really seemed to want me to twist his arm basically
Problem is they are most likely the best installer in my area

[JohnGuc]

No talking up the positives or anything
No sales pitch at all which I expected some without hard sell
He gave me a ballpark estimate for the Geo
But no mention of what level of effiency for the equipment
Very strange
What do you think?

Thanks
John

[motoguy128]

Like some have mentioend, for geothermal to be cost effective, you need to be in either a hot & humid or cold climate, not a temperate one like the West coast. You need ot be all electric if your in a cold climate, otherwise, you won;t get a return over natural gas. I saw one installed down the street form me and shook my head a little. THe up front installation costs are so high, that returns are well past 15 year...more than the service life of the equipment. Also, you now need ot compare the effceincy ot newer inverter drive air source heat pumps and factor that in. Yes, there are inverter drive geothermal too, but at some point it's diminishing return. If you are already down to lets say a $300 summer cooling bill and $600 Winter heating bill with a Carrier Greenspeed, you might save another $300/yr with geothermal. But if the increase installation costs even after your fellow tax payers chip in, is lets say even just $5k, you're stil looking at about 16 years for a break-even. Throw a gas furnace into hte mix and now it might be 20 years.

Now on new construction, it's different, sicne you may have easy lot access and equipment already on site for trenching and excavation.

Goethermal has gotten a great reputation for low bills, because it frequently installed on rural new construction, where the home is very well insulated. Even if they just had a basic 13 SEER heat pump, they would still have fairly low bills with dramatically low up front cost and lower maintenance costs.

Similarly, I don't recommend tankless water heaters for most people. They are far more complicated, and unless you have a venting issue, or very high consumption and need or want to go to direct vent, I'm not sure they are worth it.

[waterpirate]

A couple of random thoughts.

Not everyone has access to natural gas
geothermal is not expensive everywhere
markets do exist where geothermal is mature in the Darwin sense of weeding out the mistake installers

The trick to geothermal is being blessed with living in a region that fits the above

geothermal is not for everyone in every place on the rock, it allways about the economics

Eric

[JohnGuc]

I just think him pitching the air to air heat pump was strange
I am in Ohio which I believe from what Ive read is a good area to want to use Geo
I am however in an area that would not be considered leading in technology
I am also an all electric house with all electric discounts which I am losing and my electric bill is steadily going up the past 2 years and will get worse

He didnt even talk up the differences between the different effiency models
Very strange

I think I need to call another contractor
I am leaning toward a Climatemaster dealer since Climatemaster claims to be able to replace hot water 100% all year round
WaterFurnace can do that

[waterpirate]

People are strange and busines's are not imune to that. I am a loop contractor, and when I converted my house to geo I called 3 contractors that we had done projects with that were close to my home. 2 of them quoted geo like I asked, the 3rd quoted a high efficency trane air to air????? wtf? I took it to mean 2 things.

1. they thought I could not afford geo?
2. they did not want to do geo at my house?

You have the right answer, find another contractor to bid.
Eric

[JohnGuc]

Have another contractor coming monday to give me quotes and actual costs comparisons based on load calculations of my house
Feel much better about this guy doing it the right way he already figured out my sizing was wrong

Looking at 3 options

Geo
Air source heat pump with elec backup and solar panel power source
Air source heat pump with propane backup

He's actually going to figure out which way is most cost efficient to install and operate
Keeping fingers crossed

[waterdawg]

Get a cost comparison done to see if the geo is more cost effective for your area. Some air source are getting really good cop's but there is the defrost cost to add in depending on outdoor ambient temps. Geo has no need to defrost!! And if using well water no need for loop field or holes.

[JohnGuc]

Ive already done the cost comparisons

The geo with propane backup vs all others is the cheapest
Except for electric backup its about $200a year more to run
But its $2000 plus more to install
And my electric rates keep going up so I think in long run its better

Also a side benefit is with installing propane now I can switch to gas stove from electric which I Hate and possible tankless water heater later

[freonr22]

amazing

[Willard West]

This is SOP for contractors who have never worked with Geothermal, advertise GEO, show up and/to convince you otherwise.

[crispE]

Contractor #2 was almost as bad as Contractor #1, I just didn't go into detail about what I went through with him. My expenses thus far in my original post were blanked out, but I've already spent what a conventional system would have cost me in the beginning. Correcting my system would require a complete new install (minus the ground loop) plus a new unit. I don't think so. I just want to get my message onto as many forums as I can find to alert others what to expect if things go wrong with Water Furnace.

Why would you assume the ground loop is good. In my experience the ground loop is the biggest problems for fast talking eddies "AAA Advanced Awesome HVAC INC" coupled with aggressive advertising. You also said that the line was collapsed in the upstairs unit. Probably because there is a leak in the ground loop. Those lines dont collapse because they fail, its because of a vacuum put on the ground loop. If the ground loop leaks and cant be fixed by the magic ground loop fix a flat, which you can only buy with pixie dust and is made of unobtanium, YAF. GL i hope you sue their pants off. I hate retards that sell **** they dont understand.