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Thread: Radiant Barrier

  1. #53
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    Radiant barrier realities....

    As a building scientist, designer and manufacturer of radiant barriers I would like to comment before anyone does something rash.
    <p>
    The only thing worse than doing nothing to save energy, increase comfort or lower your carbon footprint is to follow bad information and spend the time and money to do it wrong.
    <p>
    With this premise I state the following knowing it all to be true as I've witnessed it personally or experienced personally:<br>
    DO NOT place a RB anywhere near the roof. You will make the attic hotter and cook your roofing material. <a href="http:/www.savenrg.com/1placemnt.htm>Click here</a> for more info on that topic.<br>
    <p>
    DO NOT paint the underside of your roof decking for the same reason....given that you've read the link above and understand what happens when you lower the emissivity of an emitting surface. However, RB paint, stapled up RB or layed over the rafters or OSB with the reflective surface facing down IS NOT A PROBLEM. This only applies to pitched roofs and the higher the pitch, the worse the effect (like Dallas homes). FYI, the hottest attic ever recorded by our company was a Dallas home, 8/12 pitch, facing South with black shingles and running ridge vent (ridge vents do not work <a href="http://www.savenrg.com/venting.htm">click here</a> for more info).
    <p>
    Back to work...if anyone has any questions regarding this, respond to this, I hate seeing anyone backpeddle when saving energy.
    </font>

  2. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by pleasesavenrg View Post
    As a building scientist, designer and manufacturer of radiant barriers I would like to comment before anyone does something rash.
    <p>
    The only thing worse than doing nothing to save energy, increase comfort or lower your carbon footprint is to follow bad information and spend the time and money to do it wrong.
    <p>
    With this premise I state the following knowing it all to be true as I've witnessed it personally or experienced personally:<br>
    DO NOT place a RB anywhere near the roof. You will make the attic hotter and cook your roofing material. <a href="http:/www.savenrg.com/1placemnt.htm>Click here</a> for more info on that topic.<br>
    <p>
    DO NOT paint the underside of your roof decking for the same reason....given that you've read the link above and understand what happens when you lower the emissivity of an emitting surface. However, RB paint, stapled up RB or layed over the rafters or OSB with the reflective surface facing down IS NOT A PROBLEM. This only applies to pitched roofs and the higher the pitch, the worse the effect (like Dallas homes). FYI, the hottest attic ever recorded by our company was a Dallas home, 8/12 pitch, facing South with black shingles and running ridge vent (ridge vents do not work <a href="http://www.savenrg.com/venting.htm">click here</a> for more info).
    <p>
    Back to work...if anyone has any questions regarding this, respond to this, I hate seeing anyone backpeddle when saving energy.
    </font>
    This is the first time I have heard/read anything like this. Does this mean everything I have read is wrong?

  3. #55
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    PleaseSaveergy;

    Your post is so confusing...

    1 DO NOT place a RB anywhere near the roof. You will make the attic hotter...
    2 DO NOT paint the underside of your roof decking for the same reason ...
    3 However, RB paint, stapled up RB or ... reflective surface facing down
    IS NOT A PROBLEM.
    4 This only applies to pitched roofs and the higher the pitch,
    the worse the effect (like Dallas homes)

    1 says not near the roof, 3 says near the roof is ok - which one.
    To which point is 4 applying - 3? What effect is worse ?

    As your website points out, doing the wall too would be great - radiation penetrates the walls too if it pentrates the roof.

    Thanks.

  4. #56
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    I agree that the post is confusing.
    Hopefully some clarification will be added soon.

    My radiant barrier was worth every drop of sweat, every pound lost,
    and the few hours it took me to install it.
    I used a single sided foil and installed it with button cap nails to the
    undersides of my rafters.

    It is a great benefit in my area and BTW..has any shingle mfg
    EVER honored their warranty?? LOL!
    The cure of the part should not be attempted without the cure of the whole. ~Plato

  5. #57
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    Oops...it was late, I forgot a word

    This sentence: "However, RB paint, stapled up RB or layed over the rafters or OSB with the reflective surface facing down IS NOT A PROBLEM." Needed to have "on flat roofs" added to the end of it to make it an accurate statement.
    <p>
    The reason? Air is a fluid and therefore responds to basic thermodynamic and physics principles such as "hot air rises". Here's the physics and logic of what drives my previous statement as follows which are known facts:
    • Air is a fluid
    • Air, when heated, becomes bouyant
    • Bouyant air rises due to its lower density
    • Hot roofs heat air
    • Roofs with a lowered emissivity are hotter than bare wood which emits at .95
    • Lowering the emissivity of a surface raises the surface temperature
    • The steeper the pitch the faster air will convect inside a given space
    • Hotter air heats up the insulation
    • Hottter insulation raises energy use and decreases comfort

    <p>
    More logic: Install a RB up against the rafters and what happens? You effectively change the direction of infrared heat. Fact: there is no free lunch in energy. You can change direction, alter course or change state by you cannot get rid of or destroy energy. Given this, where does the heat go when it's reflected back to the roof and not allowed in the attic? It must go somewhere...that "somewhere" is back through the roof. So, now we have a roof that's hotter than a roof that originally freely emits heat at .95. Is the air between the hotter roof and the RB hotter than the attic air without the RB? If so, isn't this hotter air in direct contact with the RB membrane? If it is, isn't this going to heat the RB hotter than a roof without a RB? If this is true, isn't the air (a fluid), inside the attic in direct contact with the RB membrane? Does it not stand to reason that this is going to drive convection more than a roof without an RB? Either sprayed on paint or stapled up (worst case scenario), it's the wrong way to go. Think about this, (and the graph created by a <a href="http://www.savenrg.com/1placemnt.htm">year long test by an Arizona utility company</a> on four identical homes shows this clearly), once the overheated attic insulation gets hot from the increased convection, what is it now facing? A radiant barrier. <br>
    Further, is the RB up against the roof deck <b>any</b> benefit on a cold night when infrared heat is flowing off the top of the attic insulation? The answer is no, it isn't. Anyone who says "my attic is cooler" with the RB stapled up or sprayed on has not been up there between 2pm and 4pm. At noon they are right, it is cooler and yes, there will always be less infrared heat due to the lower emissivity. But look at the graph, the RB on the roof deck doesn't start to cross the control house line until about 2pm.
    <p>
    When in doubt, follow logic and physics, they will never lead you down the wrong path.

  6. #58
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    Attic Venting

    Since 1988, I've been manufacturing and installing a blown in radiant barrier called <a href="http://www.savenrg.com/1rbschip.htm">Radiant Barrier Chips</a>. This product effectively changes the direction of infrared heat emitted by the roof during the summer and holds heat in the house during the winter. Millions of reflective surfaces facing a hot roof prove the performace as the attic temperature is raised significantly. Due to this anomaly we have become attic venting experts.
    <p>
    What we've learned along the way is on our web site and must be popular since it's typically found on the #1 or #2 spot on Google after typing in "attic venting".
    <p>
    Facts:
    • Ridge vents do not work. Anyone that says they do have not gone up in the attic on a hot day at 1pm and used chemical smoke to determine this. We have, they don't work, why? Again, physics and logic dictate the answer:
    • Hot air rises
    • Air becomes less dense as it raises in temperature
    • Hot attic air is less dense than ambient air

    I would like to have someone show me how hot air goes <i>down</i> as this is what a ridge vent is expected to do. Let's follow a cubic inch of air in a typical attic: The cube is against the hot roof and absorbs heat to it's capacity given the atmospheric pressure and humidity. The cube gets lighter and floats to the top of the attic with the rest of the hot cubes since it has less density (hot air rises). Soffit vents let other cooler cubes in to replace the hot cubes waiting to exhaust from an opening. The hot cubes "see" the light coming from the ridge vents but know they cannot fight gravity, travel <i>downhill</i> and displace a heavier, cooler, more dense air outside so they just sit there with the other hot cubes and cook the attic.
    <p>
    ATTIC FANS<br>
    Attic fans are a great idea if:
    • You don't buy them at Home Depot (you will be returning it afer one summer)
    • They have an accurate thermostat
    • They have lifetime sealed bearings and never need lubrication
    • They are balanced so they don't vibrate your home
    • There is sufficient intake air either at the soffits or an opposing gable end to allow for free air intake.
    • The space around the fan is sealed off to prevent cavitation

    Note: Just installling an attic fan will significantly impact your energy bill or comfort. Adequate attic venting, be it natural convection or a power fan, is best mated with a quality <a href="http://www.savenrg.com/dust.htm">dust proof radiant barrier</a> for optimum results.

  7. #59
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    A RB on the floor of the attic doesn't do anything to reduce heat gain in duct systems and air handling equipment located in the attic.

    The vast majority of what I have seen from government and private building science organizations, that don't have a specific product to sell, and utilities that are highly motivated not to spend billions on building new power plants, contradicts what you say about radiant barrier location and powered attic ventilators in cooling dominated climates.

  8. #60
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    While I understand that there is no free thermodynamic lunch, I can't agree with
    several 'points' that you make.
    I've pretty much picked my battles and the power vent mentality is not one that I choose to fight. Either you believe they work...and pay for it in more than one way..
    or you understand that they do not work and actually cause more problems than they solve. Granted it makes it cooler in the attic for whoever is working there, but ultimately the homeowner pays the price(s).

    Radiant barrier paints..I haven't kept up with the 'latest' but the studies that my state's department of natural resources funded didn't recommed them. Of course we are unbiased, not selling products, and only report the performance. Radiant barrier on attic floor..what a joke, these guys come around here twice a year with that stuff. Funny how they have to provide a free dinner to get customers.
    Florida Solar Energy Center has great info.. again unbiased not selling products..on radiant barriers.
    Also buildingscience.com has climate specific info on all phases of building. You can even email them..joe usually answers farily quickly.

    Granted the rb roofline install doesn't make the attic the same temp as ambient or conditioned space, but if you measure an attic without a rb and one with a rb at 7pm you will find a difference of temp. I find that attics with rb are usually 30 to 40 degrees cooler.

    I tried your radiant barrier chips link & it didn't work. Do you have another source for this info?
    Is this a product that you are selling? Any unbiased info on this product?
    The cure of the part should not be attempted without the cure of the whole. ~Plato

  9. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by pleasesavenrg View Post


    • Air is a fluid
    • Air, when heated, becomes bouyant
    • Bouyant air rises due to its lower density
    • Hot roofs heat air
    • Roofs with a lowered emissivity are hotter than bare wood which emits at .95
    • Lowering the emissivity of a surface raises the surface temperature
    • The steeper the pitch the faster air will convect inside a given space
    • Hotter air heats up the insulation
    • Hottter insulation raises energy use and decreases comfort
    To the above, I respond as follows:
    • Air is a fluid - that is true
    • Air, when heated, becomes buoyant - that is also true
    • Buoyant air rises due to less density - thermal expansion as well
    • Hot roofs heat air - that is not the only thing a hot roof deck heats. A hot roof deck will radiate heat toward rafters, trusses, HVAC ducts and air handlers, and attic insulation sitting on the attic floor
    • Roofs with a lowered emissivity are hotter than bare wood which emits at .95 - yes, but the air above the roof surface is cooler than the confined attic space below. Especially if there is wind involved.
    • Lowering the emissivity of a surface raises the surface temperature - it would if the total heat transfer available to the surface was decreased. Take an attic with no radiant barrier installed. The attic heats up on a sunny day via radiation (primary heat source), convection (hot outdoor air drawn into attic for ventilation), and conduction (transfer of heat through roof decking and onto structural members, also heated air in attic in contact with structural members. The attic will warm to a point where heat transfer through the decking is less than heat transfer from the deck and roofing material to the ambient air above the roofing material. If wind is present, it will help replace air directly over the roofing material with cooler air, aiding the heat transfer process. Even if wind is not present, a convective process on roofing materials receiving direct sunlight will set up, drawing "cooler" air in as the material heats the air over it and that air rises. The attic below, not able to ventilate nearly as well, presents a much lower delta between the roof deck and the air beneath it. Think about it...if you have 105 degrees of ambient air on one side of the shingles/decking, and 150 degrees on the opposite side, where is the heat transfer from the decking/shingles going to be greater?
    • The steeper the pitch the faster air will convect inside a given space - simply due to stack effect, and if the exterior pitch is toward the sun's angle, greater heating of the roof decking will occur
    • Hotter air heats up the insulation - so does insulation being directly bombarded by radiant heat
    • Hottter insulation raises energy use and decreases comfort - no arguement there
    More logic: Install a RB up against the rafters and what happens? You effectively change the direction of infrared heat. Fact: there is no free lunch in energy. You can change direction, alter course or change state by you cannot get rid of or destroy energy. Given this, where does the heat go when it's reflected back to the roof and not allowed in the attic? It must go somewhere...that "somewhere" is back through the roof. So, now we have a roof that's hotter than a roof that originally freely emits heat at .95. Is the air between the hotter roof and the RB hotter than the attic air without the RB? If so, isn't this hotter air in direct contact with the RB membrane? If it is, isn't this going to heat the RB hotter than a roof without a RB? If this is true, isn't the air (a fluid), inside the attic in direct contact with the RB membrane? Does it not stand to reason that this is going to drive convection more than a roof without an RB?


    I covered the direction of heat transfer in the responses to your bullet points above. To answer your question of where does the RADIANT heat go when reflected back from the decking...to the ambient air above the roofing material, which by a long shot is cooler than superheated air in an attic.

    Air between the roofing material and the roof deck? Roofing material sits on the roof deck...not much air there. Air trapped between the underside of a roof deck and a stapled-on radiant barrier? Sure...that air will get a bit sizzly if there's no provision for ventilation at the top of the barrier (ridge venting), but direct radiant heat transfer to objects within the attic is still reduced. For spray-on radiant barriers, there's no air gap, and rafters are also sprayed, thereby also reducing radiant heat transfer from those members. Roof decking with impregnated radiant barrier on the underside is best.

    For your argument to have full weight of consideration, one must examine what happens to roofing materials when the underside of the roof deck is insulated. Heat transfer of all three forms is reduced in this case; convection, conduction, radiation. Does the roofing material fail as a result because it's being cooked to death from the sun? No less, in my opinion, than roofing materials cooked by the sun with a superheated attic beneath the decking that impedes heat transfer from the decking undersides.


    Further, is the RB up against the roof deck <b>any</b> benefit on a cold night when infrared heat is flowing off the top of the attic insulation? The answer is no, it isn't.


    Radiant barriers on roof decking is most effective in climates with a much longer cooling season than heating season. While roof deck RB will reduce radiant heat loss beaming directly up from the insulation to the deck, the RB has little insulation value. It will reflect some heat back toward the attic insulation, possibly reducing heat loss via radiation from the house, but overall its purpose is to reduce radiant heat GAIN to an attic (and eventually to the house) from a roof deck during hot weather.

    Anyone who says "my attic is cooler" with the RB stapled up or sprayed on has not been up there between 2pm and 4pm. At noon they are right, it is cooler and yes, there will always be less infrared heat due to the lower emissivity.


    I know someone who goes into attics between 2 and 4 PM every summer around here, perhaps almost every day. He's been in attics with sprayed on RB and without it, and he'll tell you to your face the sprayed on material makes a difference, and he has measured it. In all honesty, what do you believe is the primary source of heating for an attic in summer conditions? The answer is radiant heat; hence the push for radiant barriers.

    When in doubt, follow logic and physics, they will never lead you down the wrong path.


    That's not bad advice to follow. The onus is to do the best we can to study and understand ALL of the laws of physics/heat transfer, not just the ones we like or dislike, or think we have a handle on. The laws don't care about our personal preferences, or our lapses in knowledge...our only aim is to manipulate the laws in our favor, which is what HVAC and building science is all about.

  10. #62
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    [QUOTE
    I would like to have someone show me how hot air goes <i>down</i> as this is what a ridge vent is expected to do. Let's follow a cubic inch of air in a typical attic: The cube is against the hot roof and absorbs heat to it's capacity given the atmospheric pressure and humidity. The cube gets lighter and floats to the top of the attic with the rest of the hot cubes since it has less density (hot air rises). Soffit vents let other cooler cubes in to replace the hot cubes waiting to exhaust from an opening. The hot cubes "see" the light coming from the ridge vents but know they cannot fight gravity, travel <i>downhill</i> and displace a heavier, cooler, more dense air outside so they just sit there with the other hot cubes and cook the attic.
    QUOTE]

    I don't follow you here. Ridged venting is expected to allow that hotter air that is rising to do exactly what you want it to do - escape out of the highest point of the roof, which pulls cooler air up through the soffits, and lowers the attic temp. significantly.

  11. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strider324 View Post
    [QUOTE
    I would like to have someone show me how hot air goes <i>down</i> as this is what a ridge vent is expected to do. Let's follow a cubic inch of air in a typical attic: The cube is against the hot roof and absorbs heat to it's capacity given the atmospheric pressure and humidity. The cube gets lighter and floats to the top of the attic with the rest of the hot cubes since it has less density (hot air rises). Soffit vents let other cooler cubes in to replace the hot cubes waiting to exhaust from an opening. The hot cubes "see" the light coming from the ridge vents but know they cannot fight gravity, travel <i>downhill</i> and displace a heavier, cooler, more dense air outside so they just sit there with the other hot cubes and cook the attic.
    QUOTE]

    I don't follow you here. Ridged venting is expected to allow that hotter air that is rising to do exactly what you want it to do - escape out of the highest point of the roof, which pulls cooler air up through the soffits, and lowers the attic temp. significantly.
    Good catch, Strider. In his flurry of statements, I missed that one.

    Now, regarding that quote:

    Let's follow a cubic inch of air in a typical attic: The cube is against the hot roof and absorbs heat to it's capacity given the atmospheric pressure and humidity. The cube gets lighter and floats to the top of the attic with the rest of the hot cubes since it has less density (hot air rises).
    Good so far...

    Soffit vents let other cooler cubes in to replace the hot cubes waiting to exhaust from an opening.
    Still on track for the moment...

    The hot cubes "see" the light coming from the ridge vents but know they cannot fight gravity, travel <i>downhill</i> and displace a heavier, cooler, more dense air outside so they just sit there with the other hot cubes and cook the attic.
    Here's where the logic seems to derail. A cubic foot of air is a stupid, senseless entity. It only reacts to its environment. You heat it up, it expands and rises. You cool it down, it shrinks and descends.

    The only way a cubic foot of warmer air can displace a cubic foot of cooler air is to become even warmer, thereby expanding. This may be what you have in mind. However, if cooler air is still entering the attic through the soffits, it is because the warmer air near the ridge venting is able to escape the confines of the attic, creating a pressure difference. Air lost has to be made up...stupid air just obeys the rules blindly.

    You seem to be stating that ridge venting does not work; i.e. somehow the "cubes of air" get all jammed up at the ridge and then propogate downward as heating continues and none of the expanded air can escape. Two things strike me as working against that idea. One, the temperature and pressure of the expanded air is considerably higher than the ambient/atmospheric air immediately outside of the ridge vent. If the air in the attic can expand, it will impose pressurization on the ridge openings. If the ridge is not ridiculously restrictive, the pressure difference between attic and atmosphere will cause a migration of heated air out of the attic and into the atmosphere.

    I will state I have felt heated air emerging from soffit vents in the past. You also can't mistake that hot, dry smell of a superheated attic if you walk under a soffit vent that is back-venting. As for why hot air might drop out of a soffit vent, one factor would be wind entering gable and/or ridge venting, whirlybirds, or other forms of elevated roof venting and momentarily pressurizing the attic higher than the natural pressurization that occurs via expanding, heated air. The natural stack effect is disrupted and the soffit vents blow out hot air. Nevertheless, they blew out hot air, some measure if ventilation occured to the positive.

    This discussion so far has not covered the matter of poorly sealed ceilings adjoining insulated attic floors. I bring that matter up whenever I become involved with powered air ventilation discussions...it has to be said for the same reasons...pressurization/depressurization of an attic with a poorly sealed ceiling will affect the interior environment considerably. Pressure exerts in all directions...if you superheat an attic and the air cannot escape at the same rate it is expanding and pressurizing the attic, it's entirely reasonable to expect downward migration of superheated attic air into a house interior with gaps in the ceiling. This is known as reverse stack effect, and in my climate with the way most homes are built, it's an ongoing summertime reality.

  12. #64
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    Just a few more things for our friend from down under:

    Facts:
    • Ridge vents do not work. Anyone that says they do have not gone up in the attic on a hot day at 1pm and used chemical smoke to determine this. We have, they don't work, why? Again, physics and logic dictate the answer:
    • Hot air rises
    • Air becomes less dense as it raises in temperature
    • Hot attic air is less dense than ambient air
    Hot attic air may be less dense than ambient air, but it has greater pressure, being that it is in a confined space in relation to atmosphere. When you did your chemical smoke test at the ridge, and it backdrafted on you, did you consider the presence of wind creating this effect? Did you follow up that observation with smoke testing the soffit vents, or recessed can lights and duct supply register boots inside the structure? The air has to go SOMEWHERE if you are seeing the smoke trail deflect down from a ridge vent. Where did it go??

    ATTIC FANS<br>
    Attic fans are a great idea if:
    • You don't buy them at Home Depot (you will be returning it afer one summer)
    • They have an accurate thermostat
    • They have lifetime sealed bearings and never need lubrication
    • They are balanced so they don't vibrate your home
    • There is sufficient intake air either at the soffits or an opposing gable end to allow for free air intake.
    • The space around the fan is sealed off to prevent cavitation
    Note: Just installling an attic fan will significantly impact your energy bill or comfort. Adequate attic venting, be it natural convection or a power fan, is best mated with a quality <a href="http://www.savenrg.com/dust.htm">dust proof radiant barrier</a> for optimum results.
    I can understand why energyraterla was reluctant to address the issue of powered attic ventilation with you. Your understanding of thermodynamics within an attic appear to need polishing, with all due respect. I'm still learning myself, but I think I have attained a workable handle on it for having come to grasp more deeply the study of psychrometrics. It is no easy matter to understand that, for many things occur simultaneously that must be understood. To neglect one aspect throws an entire chain of reasoning off track. I think you want to be on track...I hope my postings to you work to that end.

  13. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by pleasesavenrg View Post
    I would like to have someone show me how hot air goes <i>down</i> as this is what a ridge vent is expected to do.
    Your understanding of fluid mechanics puzzles me. Your statements about ridge vents are the identical (not sure if word for word, but very, very close) words used by another alternative to ridge vents product vendor. It certainly makes me question the validity of any point you make on your respective websites. Do this first- get an engineering Fluid Mechanics book from a used bookstore. Study the chapter on Bernoulli's equation (heck, just wiki it you want) and get a heat transfer book as well, and see if your position on ridge vents holds water.

    Do ridge vents backdraft? Sure, a wind could do that, a fart fan getting its air from the attic through the leak around the bathroom ceiling light fixture could cause it to, an attic fan blowing out could certainly will cause it to - all easily demonstrated by Bernoiulli's equation as well as heat transfer mechanisms. Natural convection during a hot day means the ridge vent shouldn;t normally cause it to backdraft.

    This isn't a personal attack by any stretch. I completely understand that you firmly believe in your products and promoting your products is your livelihood. To that endeavor, I wish you the best of luck. Just keep in mind that if you try to promote your product to someone who has an understanding about heat transfer and fluid mechanics using the arguments you made, you won't keep their attention very long. Worse - you could possibly lose a sale when one of your products may be the best solution for them.

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