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Originally Posted by amd

is this an upflow furnace installed as a downflow?

These Trane furnaces are multi-positional.

is this an upflow furnace installed as a downflow?

Originally Posted by thatguy

Everybody is always quick to blame the installer when the home owner is quite often the problem. They are the ones that shopped around and asked the questions, checked the references, and saw the photos of the company’s previous installs when they did their homework. They should be well aware of what they are buying when they make the deal. I’m not saying this is true for all cases, or even a majority, but it is certainly the case in some.

So long as that install won’t harm anyone, and as long as the installs quality falls within the price point that the home owner paid for, then that might be the best install that they should expect to get. If the homeowners shop around and haggle the lowest bidder down even further, then they shouldn’t be expecting to get a Porsche when they haven’t even paid for a Ford Pinto.

I’ll be honest. Sometimes when I’m at the gas station I buy one of those $1.00 phone cables. I know it will never last as long or work quite as well as the $30.00 brand name cable, but I feel that the quality and function fall within the price point that I have paid and for that I feel like it’s a fair deal. Maybe this install has some resemblance to this...

Maybe it was a million dollar home when it should have been a two million dollar home when done right.

Now if the customer paid for a Porsche and were delivered this then they sure have a right to complain, but that’s not always the case and it’s hard to tell from the outside because we can’t see the numbers. But it is pretty easy to judge from the outside based on what we can see...

I understand a company chooses to lower themselves to satisfy a customers low ball request when they agree to do work like this and that they should have more pride in their work, I get that. Does that make it their fault for doing ugly work? ... Actually, I guess it kinda does... What was my point again?


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This is a huge homebuilder that my company has done work for, for many years. Fortunately, this individual doesnt work for us anymore. Of course, it doesnt make it any more fun to clean up his crap.

Originally Posted by Makeitcold

Lol! That pipe looks like something violent and non-consensual happened to it.

lol #ventPipeMe2

Lol! That pipe looks like something violent and non-consensual happened to it.

Everybody is always quick to blame the installer when the home owner is quite often the problem. They are the ones that shopped around and asked the questions, checked the references, and saw the photos of the company’s previous installs when they did their homework. They should be well aware of what they are buying when they make the deal. I’m not saying this is true for all cases, or even a majority, but it is certainly the case in some.

So long as that install won’t harm anyone, and as long as the installs quality falls within the price point that the home owner paid for, then that might be the best install that they should expect to get. If the homeowners shop around and haggle the lowest bidder down even further, then they shouldn’t be expecting to get a Porsche when they haven’t even paid for a Ford Pinto.

I’ll be honest. Sometimes when I’m at the gas station I buy one of those $1.00 phone cables. I know it will never last as long or work quite as well as the $30.00 brand name cable, but I feel that the quality and function fall within the price point that I have paid and for that I feel like it’s a fair deal. Maybe this install has some resemblance to this...

Maybe it was a million dollar home when it should have been a two million dollar home when done right.

Now if the customer paid for a Porsche and were delivered this then they sure have a right to complain, but that’s not always the case and it’s hard to tell from the outside because we can’t see the numbers. But it is pretty easy to judge from the outside based on what we can see...

I understand a company chooses to lower themselves to satisfy a customers low ball request when they agree to do work like this and that they should have more pride in their work, I get that. Does that make it their fault for doing ugly work? ... Actually, I guess it kinda does... What was my point again?


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I would think that if the installer had very little experience then someone should have been supervising them, and unless it was their first day, they should know what proper looks like. I'm still debating if that big blue smear was a joint they took apart and didn't clean up or if that was their attempt to seal it and I'm leaning toward the latter

Originally Posted by thatguy

Originally Posted by Metalman0880

I’ll say this. I hold myself along with all our employees to a high standard. If I had people installing stuff like this one of a few things would happen:
1) they would be back there fixing that correctly
2) they would be terminated after fixing it
3) if they didn’t fix it I’d just fire them
4) if the boss wouldn’t let me fire them I’d walk

We all know help is tough, but it’s not worth keeping someone as an extra pair of hands with THAT kind of bs.

I can understand the frustration when this happens but finding that kind of work and knowing who did it gives an excellent opportunity to teach them how to do it proper and explain to them why. If you were to always fire someone when they make mistakes then you will always be hiring the new guy who will make the same mistakes that the last guy made, and giving the guys that have just been taught a good lesson to your competitors. If you teach them to take pride in their work, show them the art of the trade, and train them to be good techs then you can form that tech into a great asset to the company.

I partially agree with Metalman0880 and with thatguy. I have some questions for you guys (and any other veterans reading this).

What I would want to know is whether the tech:
(A) just made a mistake and didn't know better, or
(B) intentionally did a crappy job (so knew better but chose not to do what he knew how to do).

If #A, he has low skill but he's honest so he can learn and become high skill in the near future.

If #B, he has high skill but doesn't use it cuz he's dishonest, and his dishonesty prevents him from doing a good job and from improving his skill (there's tons of other problems with dishonesty too).

So, is it feasible to judge from the pictures in the OP whether or not the tech is an A or a B? (I'm asking cuz I don't know the first thing about HVAC)

Or would you have to have a discussion with the installer in order to figure out if he's an A or a B? And if so, how would you have that discussion? What questions would you ask designed to find out if he's an A or a B?

In the Seattle area a million dollar home is just about a starter home. What you show here is typical for most of the residential, commercial & industrial calls that I get. One gentlemen has his water source heat pump dehumidification system piped backwards so the inlet was the outlet & when the controls turned the machine on the discharge sensor sensing the discharge water from the heat exchanger turned the system off. The unit had been installed 10 years ago with just about every major Seattle company servicing it yet no one every bothered to check its operation. The machine sat there & short cycled for 10 years.

This kind of stuff is exactly what I do on a daily to weekly basis. Her are a very few picture:Attachment 812296Attachment 812297Attachment 812298Attachment 812299

I get the venting part, but my experience is the work reflects the owner. Everyone hires crap employees at some point, but if that bothered the owner it would get cleaned up quick. Email off photos of that to the service manager, sales guy, and owner with the title "home owner wants to know why his expensive new system looks like a child put it together". That's usually good for a laugh when the S hits the fan

Originally Posted by 71CHOPS

that's funny.....you guys motivated me to finally turn the heat on today. the Ol' girl fired right off! Woohoo!! hopefully get another year out of her!

I've been kicking around the idea of installing a 2 stage 80K gas furnace. I think the 100K is too large now that we've insulated some of the rooms, and installed new windows. also gonna install a second system upstairs eventually.....I've always thought it would be gas, but I might also do a heat pump with it. I've remodeled the house from inside out over the last 20 years, but still more to do!

If you do a heat pump, take a look at the Bosch. I have been quite impressed with the ones I have installed. Customers are real happy.

My house was built in 1910. Only have 100 amps, so probably go with ducted mini-splits. No room for ducts. If I did ducts I would loose too much of my walk up attic space. Hate to loose that. Ducted minis consume less space.

I will keep my oil boiler for a backup.

Originally Posted by 71CHOPS

I may do one.....never seem to very motivated with my own stuff! LOL! when I bought my house (built in 1925), the windows were so bad, the mostly closed bedroom door would knock against the frame as the wind blew! now we have all new windows, I've insulated some of the rooms, etc., I "think" I don't need as many heating BTU's as I used to! LOL!!

Post your home specs and someone here will do it. Lazy ass. Lol.

Originally Posted by Adlerberts-Protege

You think or know? Do a heat load calc. Let us know the results.

I may do one.....never seem to very motivated with my own stuff! LOL! when I bought my house (built in 1925), the windows were so bad, the mostly closed bedroom door would knock against the frame as the wind blew! now we have all new windows, I've insulated some of the rooms, etc., I "think" I don't need as many heating BTU's as I used to! LOL!!

Originally Posted by Poodle Head Mikey

So I go back to the stat and find that whatever idiot wired it to get the AC back on didn't bother connecting the W wire to the stat. <g>

PHM
---------

What an idiot!!! I would NEVER do things like that.

Oh wait - I have. And too many times to remember all of them. Actually, I have to go back today to finish what I didn't finish at 8:00 PM on Wednesday. (reduce the condenser MOCP, insulate the condenser suction line and haul off the last of the trash.)

Never mind. Move along. Nothing to see here. <g>

Originally Posted by 71CHOPS

that's funny.....you guys motivated me to finally turn the heat on today. the Ol' girl fired right off! Woohoo!! hopefully get another year out of her!

I've been kicking around the idea of installing a 2 stage 80K gas furnace. I think the 100K is too large now that we've insulated some of the rooms, and installed new windows. also gonna install a second system upstairs eventually.....I've always thought it would be gas, but I might also do a heat pump with it. I've remodeled the house from inside out over the last 20 years, but still more to do!

You think or know? Do a heat load calc. Let us know the results.

that's funny.....you guys motivated me to finally turn the heat on today. the Ol' girl fired right off! Woohoo!! hopefully get another year out of her!

I've been kicking around the idea of installing a 2 stage 80K gas furnace. I think the 100K is too large now that we've insulated some of the rooms, and installed new windows. also gonna install a second system upstairs eventually.....I've always thought it would be gas, but I might also do a heat pump with it. I've remodeled the house from inside out over the last 20 years, but still more to do!

Originally Posted by Poodle Head Mikey

I immediately thought of you last night!

I was going to take the little woman to Italy for a couple weeks for her birthday but before I mentioned it she shyly said that she'd like to have a rebuilt LR for her birthday - so I kept the Italy idea to myself. <g>

So the LR has been torn to bits for the last month. Behind the wall the stat was mounted on is the stairway down to the basement. The wall was all open anyway so during demo and the staircase build I just hung the stat on a nail on the back side of the wall. The wall is now rocked and two days ago I thought: stat's got to be mounted eventually - I'll do it now and then remove it again to paint. The AC had been fine but it's gotten cool so I switched on the heat after I mounted the stat. This stat is connected to a Goodman horizontal furnace in the basement.

My 2 year old and I were playing on the floor yesterday and the air blowing on us was cold. Checked and the room was 67º and the stat was set to 70º. Oh Shet! Now the heat is broke? Did I change the stat hot? Touch R/C together pulling the wires? Blew a fuse? No wait; the blower is on - so I have control power. I can't work on it while guarding him from every boy-thing he can find to get into in the basement so I waited until a nap.

This is a modestly complicated heating/cooling system which also has an electric duct heater with some of the elements wired in series and some of the wiring comes through that control panel. Power comes from two separate sources - hell; I can't remember where the control power comes from - I haven't worked on it, or even thought about it for years - so I just start in:

OK; 240 to the duct heater
No transformer in here
Must be in the furnace.
Where the hell do these control wires go?
What is this interlock?
Where does this separate two-wire go?

Finally I find that everything in the basement is OK. There's control power R-C but none W-C.

Oh shet! Did I somehow burn a contact in the stat? Are these HW 8000's still under warranty? What a pain in the ass!

And the whole time in the back of my head your words are rocketing around:

Prolly jinx myself (saying how reliable and trouble-free Goodmans are!) <g>

So I go back to the stat and find that whatever idiot wired it to get the AC back on didn't bother connecting the W wire to the stat. <g>

PHM
---------

I just put in a new heat pump system yesterday. Waited for time delay no ac but got blower. Check y to c at condenser nothing. Check splice at furnace still no hot at y. Crawl in the tight crawl to check the splice I made down there moving the stat, beautiful splice. Scratch my head for a minute because it can't be the new stat I put in. Sure enough this idiot put y on y2 for a single stage HP. One of these days I'll learn to check all the easy things first.

I immediately thought of you last night!

I was going to take the little woman to Italy for a couple weeks for her birthday but before I mentioned it she shyly said that she'd like to have a rebuilt LR for her birthday - so I kept the Italy idea to myself. <g>

So the LR has been torn to bits for the last month. Behind the wall the stat was mounted on is the stairway down to the basement. The wall was all open anyway so during demo and the staircase build I just hung the stat on a nail on the back side of the wall. The wall is now rocked and two days ago I thought: stat's got to be mounted eventually - I'll do it now and then remove it again to paint. The AC had been fine but it's gotten cool so I switched on the heat after I mounted the stat. This stat is connected to a Goodman horizontal furnace in the basement.

My 2 year old and I were playing on the floor yesterday and the air blowing on us was cold. Checked and the room was 67º and the stat was set to 70º. Oh Shet! Now the heat is broke? Did I change the stat hot? Touch R/C together pulling the wires? Blew a fuse? No wait; the blower is on - so I have control power. I can't work on it while guarding him from every boy-thing he can find to get into in the basement so I waited until a nap.

This is a modestly complicated heating/cooling system which also has an electric duct heater with some of the elements wired in series and some of the wiring comes through that control panel. Power comes from two separate sources - hell; I can't remember where the control power comes from - I haven't worked on it, or even thought about it for years - so I just start in:

OK; 240 to the duct heater
No transformer in here
Must be in the furnace.
Where the hell do these control wires go?
What is this interlock?
Where does this separate two-wire go?

Finally I find that everything in the basement is OK. There's control power R-C but none W-C.

Oh shet! Did I somehow burn a contact in the stat? Are these HW 8000's still under warranty? What a pain in the ass!

And the whole time in the back of my head your words are rocketing around:

Prolly jinx myself (saying how reliable and trouble-free Goodmans are!) <g>

So I go back to the stat and find that whatever idiot wired it to get the AC back on didn't bother connecting the W wire to the stat. <g>

PHM
---------

Originally Posted by 71CHOPS

. . . . I'll prolly jinx myself, but my home system is a goodman, installed in 1998. it's been a good system....had a few issues over the years, but nothing out of the ordinary for a 20 year old system . . . .

Originally Posted by Adlerberts-Protege

I have to show up to this crap almost on a daily basis. This is what my guys are installing in a million dollar home. Sickening to say the least.

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If this was the situation that I was put in, I would be calling my boss to let him know that I will be a while on this start up. When he asks why, I would send him a picture and let him know what materials the idiots who installed this will need to bring with them when they show up so I can show them how to do it properly.

If he does not have a problem with this install, time for new job.

How could anyone walk away from this and call it done?

Originally Posted by Poodle Head Mikey

That reminds me: I like Goodman equipment and the local distributors who sell it. I have installed a lot of Goodman equipment, two of the units in my own house are Goodman, and it seems to be well made and reliable brand. Which comes with an excellent warranty that I have Very seldom ever had to use.

But I have this one Goodman system - a 3 ton heat pump - which seems like it's been nine years of routine BS. Some repairable leaks - one where the discharge line enters the condenser coil and one on the center distributor tube where it enters the evaporator. But capacitors, contactors, a condenser fan motor, right now a heat sequencer - it just seems like every few months it's Something with this bastard.

My two Goodman units (a gas furnace and a HP condensing unit running cool only - and not connected to each other) are at least as old and have never missed a beat. Either all other my installed-for-customers units have been equally reliable - or all their owners have fired me - because they all apparently run flawlessly too.

I always see/hear people bad-mouthing Goodman and have always disagreed with their opinions. But then I think of this 3 ton HP I put in for my chiropractor . . . . . <g>

PHM
--------

Mikey, you know that it is never the equipment- it is the install. The problem with Goodman is that anyone can buy and "attempt" to install it.

I installed a Goodman 11 years ago. My first install with no micron gauge (I let the pump run for 3 days over the weekend plus Monday). Only thing I ever replaced was a hard start cap.

At one time Goodman had some top engineers and really good technical data.