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The building is happiest being kept at the conditions it was built for. A sick pool area means a very sick building. To the point that the room must be taken down to the studs for mold removal. As a local hotel found out about a few years back. Pool room workers have to dress for the conditions. As we aren’t doing anything but imitating summer conditions. The right approach is doing things as they’ve been designed to be done. Like keep the air temp at least 2° above pool water temperature.
Originally Posted by rider77 Being involved in several audits of operation, you’d be very surprised at the amount of water that can be evaporated in a short amount of time. And that plus the added cost of chemicals adds considerable cost to the customer for pool treatment. As said, heating is low on cost due to the pool naturally warming the space. These units are not HVAC equipment, they are dehumidifiers. Making the pool deck comfortable for workers could mean a very unpleasant experience for bathers. In the real world we have to find a compromise between making bathers happy, people on pool deck happy, save the building and make all this sustainable. We have to put everything in the pot and mix to have right approach. Inviato dal mio HUAWEI VNS-L31 utilizzando Tapatalk
Originally Posted by lambrusco 1)Avoiding to consider all people around the pool is shortsighted. People on the pool deck are workers and we have to give them comfortable work conditions, so this should be considered when setting hvac unit. 2) chemicals cost for water treatment is negligible compared to heating, saving some chemicals will never compensate saving on heating. Inviato dal mio HUAWEI VNS-L31 utilizzando Tapatalk Being involved in several audits of operation, you’d be very surprised at the amount of water that can be evaporated in a short amount of time. And that plus the added cost of chemicals adds considerable cost to the customer for pool treatment. As said, heating is low on cost due to the pool naturally warming the space. These units are not HVAC equipment, they are dehumidifiers. Making the pool deck comfortable for workers could mean a very unpleasant experience for bathers.
Originally Posted by rider77 My customers come from just about every background and business model. They include wealthy homeowners with pools in their houses (one of which owns the Philadelphia Eagles), non-profits, community funded buildings, schools, universities, private businesses, hospitals, and so on. To directly quote something that was beat into our heads during every training seminar I attended, “the dehumidifier is there and operating for the health of the building and the comfort of those bathing in the pool, not for the people around the pool. It is not nor intended to be an air conditioner or for comfort cooling”. If they think the gas bills are bad, they should calculate how much they are spending on make up water and chemicals to treat it because of so much evaporation from the pool due to incorrect temperature settings. 1)Avoiding to consider all people around the pool is shortsighted. People on the pool deck are workers and we have to give them comfortable work conditions, so this should be considered when setting hvac unit. 2) chemicals cost for water treatment is negligible compared to heating, saving some chemicals will never compensate saving on heating. Inviato dal mio HUAWEI VNS-L31 utilizzando Tapatalk
Originally Posted by lambrusco Thanks rider for sharing your experience and i apologize if i was indelicate but...have you ever tested level of comfort of people working in there, like coaches? We have coaches working for 6 hours a day 6 days/wk, i think they wouldn't be happy staying all day at 30° not to mention parents on the stands (but this is the least of our problems) . Do these facilities have a control of their bills or they have "helicopter money"? In my facilities in winter months gas bill is a an arm and a leg and we have a thight cost control and i'm still doubtful that keeping air 1or2 deg °C above water will make me save money. Inviato dal mio HUAWEI VNS-L31 utilizzando Tapatalk My customers come from just about every background and business model. They include wealthy homeowners with pools in their houses (one of which owns the Philadelphia Eagles), non-profits, community funded buildings, schools, universities, private businesses, hospitals, and so on. To directly quote something that was beat into our heads during every training seminar I attended, “the dehumidifier is there and operating for the health of the building and the comfort of those bathing in the pool, not for the people around the pool. It is not nor intended to be an air conditioner or for comfort cooling”. If they think the gas bills are bad, they should calculate how much they are spending on make up water and chemicals to treat it because of so much evaporation from the pool due to incorrect temperature settings.
Doesn't cost much to keep the air temp 2°F above pool temp. A lot of the heat needed comes from the people during occupied times. Maintaining a high pool temp, is where the high cost comes from.
Originally Posted by rider77 Many of my customers are universities, training centers, YMCAs, and public pool buildings. Thinking about it my largest customer is a college that has 2 tandem PoolPak units that serve a room with 2 Olympic sized pools. This room is conditioned to 55% humidity and 89° at all times. Pool water is 86°. And those readings that you posted are very realistic temperatures in which to keep the nanitorium at. Thanks rider for sharing your experience and i apologize if i was indelicate but...have you ever tested level of comfort of people working in there, like coaches? We have coaches working for 6 hours a day 6 days/wk, i think they wouldn't be happy staying all day at 30° not to mention parents on the stands (but this is the least of our problems) . Do these facilities have a control of their bills or they have "helicopter money"? In my facilities in winter months gas bill is a an arm and a leg and we have a thight cost control and i'm still doubtful that keeping air 1or2 deg °C above water will make me save money. Inviato dal mio HUAWEI VNS-L31 utilizzando Tapatalk
Originally Posted by lambrusco Ok, private pool, is not my case, I was speaking about public facilities with 2000/4000 access per week. We have pools with water at 32/33 °C so following the books written by engineers who never stayed inside a pool for more than an hour, i should keep air at 34°C. It's nothing less than hilarious. Inviato dal mio HUAWEI VNS-L31 utilizzando Tapatalk Many of my customers are universities, training centers, YMCAs, and public pool buildings. Thinking about it my largest customer is a college that has 2 tandem PoolPak units that serve a room with 2 Olympic sized pools. This room is conditioned to 55% humidity and 89° at all times. Pool water is 86°. And those readings that you posted are very realistic temperatures in which to keep the nanitorium at.
Isn't 1.8°F = 1°C, so if you have the water set to 32°C, the air should be set to 33°C (32x1.8)+32=89.6°F (33x1.8)+32=91.4°F
Ok, private pool, is not my case, I was speaking about public facilities with 2000/4000 access per week. We have pools with water at 32/33 °C so following the books written by engineers who never stayed inside a pool for more than an hour, i should keep air at 34°C. It's nothing less than hilarious. Inviato dal mio HUAWEI VNS-L31 utilizzando Tapatalk
If a pool is kept covered except when used - very little - then the pool room air can be lowered a few degrees for energy savings if the customer understands the consequence meaning when the swimmer gets out of the pool the heat will be wicked from their body since the room temp is less than the pool temp so they will have a very good chance of feeling cold. I have a good many customers that keep their pools covered - based on my advice - and they accept the cooling off fact for the money that they will save in energy. And heating the air takes less energy than heating the water so I also instruct them that they won't save all that much energy in lowering the air temperature. As a humorous side story made as briefly as I can, a new customer with a very large roof mounted Dectron called me about his unit costing so much money to run. So I asked him to give me a day by day run down of how he operates his system. Every morning he gets in the pool for one hour and a little before he turns up the pool room air to 82 degrees. When finished he turns down the pool room temperature to 72 to save on heating costs. Then twice a week he rents out his pool to a lady that does child proof swimming to infants and she does the same per his instructions. The control system is a factory high end software centered control system that has a joined heat/cool set point that only has the choice of a differential between the two. His differential between switching to heating or cooling of the pool room air being only 4 degrees caused the heating of the air by a separate large gas fired boiler then, when set down to save energy, indexed the Dectron to energize both compressors to cooling to maintain the now 72 degree room cooling set point. He was floored. He was even more floored when I showed him videos/pictures of the condition of the unit inside due to the other fact that he would shut the system completely down between midnight and sunrise. He's a software engineer so he hates listening to me much but I let him know it's his house, his unit and his money and how he likes to throw him money and damage his systems is up to him. Now he has started to listen a little. The system is 8 years old, I think, and never serviced. The exhaust fan had failed from rust and had a layer of rust over the blower belt. I had to remove everything and rebuild that as a started. Now I have him convinced to allow the system to run on fan at night and to not dink with the controls during the day. I don't think he's doing ti though but that is OK with me as I just keep getting more work.
Originally Posted by rider77 No, none of that is correct. None of the hundreds of nanitoriums I serviced, or still service, “went out of business very quickly”. The equipment and conditioning it provides is for the swimmers in the pool, not the people around it. That book was written by the engineers that designed the equipment, the people that built it and the service techs that maintain it. I’d highly doubt they are wrong. Unfortunately it seems you have an opinion that is flawed. I agree, is the best for the building but not for the comfort of people inside it. Inviato dal mio HUAWEI VNS-L31 utilizzando Tapatalk
I take care of several pool units at various hotels. They're all set up to maintain the air temp 2°F above water temp. And have been open for many years.
Originally Posted by lambrusco This is a thing written by someone staying in a room full of books and never lived inside a pool. . The only situation you can keep air 2 degrees more than water is a pool with attended by only fast swimmers or athletes, which as i said before will run out of business very quickly. Practice without theory is more valuable than theory without practice Inviato dal mio HUAWEI VNS-L31 utilizzando Tapatalk No, none of that is correct. None of the hundreds of nanitoriums I serviced, or still service, “went out of business very quickly”. The equipment and conditioning it provides is for the swimmers in the pool, not the people around it. That book was written by the engineers that designed the equipment, the people that built it and the service techs that maintain it. I’d highly doubt they are wrong. Unfortunately it seems you have an opinion that is flawed.
Originally Posted by rider77 Please attend training for pool room conditioning and proper setting of equipment. From the PoolPak factory technical service manual page #2. Attachment 814178 This is the manual I used for all my factory startups. This is a thing written by someone staying in a room full of books and never lived inside a pool. . The only situation you can keep air 2 degrees more than water is a pool with attended by only fast swimmers or athletes, which as i said before will run out of business very quickly. Practice without theory is more valuable than theory without practice Inviato dal mio HUAWEI VNS-L31 utilizzando Tapatalk
Originally Posted by lambrusco anyone saying to keep air temp 2°C above water temp to limit evaporation has never run a swimming pool or if he does he will run out of business very soon. Customers want warm water, at least 28°C for amateur or slow swimming (which is the 90% of the people) and minimum 32°C for little kids learning or fisiotherapy. if you follow the above rule you should keep air temp to 30°C and will cook everyone working in the pool make the feel the water colder than it is to the customers, so stop suggesting this thing that would work only virtually. Please attend training for pool room conditioning and proper setting of equipment. From the PoolPak factory technical service manual page #2. Attachment 814178 This is the manual I used for all my factory startups.
anyone saying to keep air temp 2°C above water temp to limit evaporation has never run a swimming pool or if he does he will run out of business very soon. Customers want warm water, at least 28°C for amateur or slow swimming (which is the 90% of the people) and minimum 32°C for little kids learning or fisiotherapy. if you follow the above rule you should keep air temp to 30°C and will cook everyone working in the pool make the feel the water colder than it is to the customers, so stop suggesting this thing that would work only virtually.
Poolpak +1
And the thread was only started 5 year ago.
Originally Posted by DavisServicesLL I have been called in on a Dessert air system for an enclosed pool. To the best of my knowledge this system had been designed for the application and installed correctly. The new owners of the house have no history though and I found the water supply lines from the pool cut and disconnected. I checked for refrigerant and it is charged leading me to believe the water cooled condenser was/is not an issue. I reconnected the water lines and started the system up. It is running! What should I be looking for next? The pool water supply/return lines are for heating the pool when a call for dehumidification is required and, typically, the Dessert air has only the secondary heating function with a separate boiler or heating system for primary source of pool water heating. Unless there is an outside condensor for an A/C option the dehumidifier can not work as without the pool water connected the hot discharge gas has no where to go so the system will shut down on high head. And there must be a balancing valve installed to bypass the dehumidifiers pool water heat exchanger as the systems are not built to handle the full GPM from the pool pump. And the balancing valve must be set to maintain a constant differential between the inlet/outlet of the pool water heat exchange. The basic & main design for these indoor pool systems is for control of the humidity inside of the enclosed pool room. With the right unit they can also control the room temperature for heating & with the A/C option the cooling of the room. They also should influence the pool room by keeping a negative pressure in the pool room so gases/vapors don't enter the residence if it is attached. So the more advanced indoor pool room systems dehumidify first, control the pool room air heat/cooling if included & use the compressor energy to heat the pool water. And the control system, especially the humidity sensor, is a very important part of the successful operation of these systems.
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