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sgagne199
09-12-2011, 08:52 PM
I am working on a 4ft. long Beverage Air, make table refrigerator and I am having some issues with finding correct cap tube size and length. I am going to be running hot shot due to cap tube plugging issues in the past. The compressor is a tecumseh AZA0395YXA. The supco guide said 92" of 0.028ID cap tube and this starved the evap badly. Any input would be appreciated.

DLZ Dan
09-12-2011, 09:27 PM
Forgive me for stating the obvious, but did you call bev-air? Get on the phone with one of their engineers and they can give you the best advice. After all, it IS their equipment.

marsmech
09-14-2011, 06:29 AM
Have you also thought of changing it to a TXV. I have done this now on four reach ins. Every customer has mentioned the difference in operation, runtime, and overall experience with the cooler. Call the manufacturer get all the specs. Total btu's needed, btu's for the compressor at the temperature you are cooling to, and a recommend valve size. They may not recommend a valve as it is out of spec but I am out of experience believe this is the best avenue if you do not want continous service calls! Good luck!!!

Andy Schoen
09-14-2011, 07:38 PM
I am working on a 4ft. long Beverage Air, make table refrigerator and I am having some issues with finding correct cap tube size and length. I am going to be running hot shot due to cap tube plugging issues in the past. The compressor is a tecumseh AZA0395YXA. The supco guide said 92" of 0.028ID cap tube and this starved the evap badly. Any input would be appreciated.

The best capillary tube sizing calculator available would have picked a 0.028" cap at 51" length at a 20F evap, 120F condensing, and 36" heat exchange. ;) http://boxload.tecumseh.com/

Dump the Supco and J/B charts. You are throwing rocks at the broad side of a barn. :D

The Beverage Air folks will have a better idea which capillary tube works best with their equipment. ;)

cougarjack
09-14-2011, 08:10 PM
Just changed one last week on a single door Ref....It was .049 and 100" long ...Call Bev Air with model # and they well tell you what to run ...

sgagne199
09-15-2011, 07:26 PM
I would consider converting to a txv but customer would never go for that no matter what benefits it may entitle. I called bev air and they said 84in of 0.036 ID cap tube.

sgagne199
09-15-2011, 07:28 PM
and yeah after changing a few cap tubes I have noticed not to go by Supco and J/B charts haha they arent very accurate at all in my experience

crazy eye
09-15-2011, 11:09 PM
make sure you charge compressor oil so you don't have to do it twice . I learned that the hard way .

itsiceman
09-16-2011, 07:20 AM
When I put in those numbers in here http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=751621 I got 26.44" of .028 from the .036 length



Guess the best bet is to call the manufacturer*




*(willing to bet Andys picks a better cap on some other brands though) ;)




I believe your web apps will push me over the fence for a smart phone.
Thanks Andy for putting together some great info there for us :cool:

VTP99
09-17-2011, 02:27 PM
[QUOTE=itsiceman;11293282]

itsiceman,
I like your avitar its kinda like { winning the lottery and dying the next day }


Oh and i looked at a Victory 3 door freezer yesterday. It was marked that someone replaced the cap tubes. 2 cap tubes about 3' long smaller then original :whistle: So i call Victory and tech says it takes .042 @ 7'-6" long. :whistle: So i look at Supco chart and it says .031 @ 39" long. :grin2:

Andy Schoen
09-17-2011, 05:36 PM
The Supco and J/B charts only guesstimate at the design operating conditions of the equipment. Sizing capillary tubes on the basis of compressor horsepower vs low, medium, and high temp application is attempting to hit the broad side of a barn with a heavy rock at 100 feet.

OEM tech support will know the design conditions of their equipment, and the appropriate capillary tube sizing.

If this information isn't available, I have the next best solution. ;)

dan wong
09-29-2011, 03:58 AM
The best capillary tube sizing calculator available would have picked a 0.028" cap at 51" length at a 20F evap, 120F condensing, and 36" heat exchange. ;) http://boxload.tecumseh.com/

Dump the Supco and J/B charts. You are throwing rocks at the broad side of a barn. :D

The Beverage Air folks will have a better idea which capillary tube works best with their equipment. ;)
Hi Andy, Is it possible to modify the cap tube program (see attachment)?.
I would be very useful if a particular compressor is already in the system, and I wanted to replace the restricted cap tube.

Edit; I am un-able to up to load attachment. my question is; would it be possible to modify the program, so I input the compressor model # instead of system capacity? Existing compressor is already there, I want to know replacement size tubing based on existing compressor.
Thank
Dan Wong

Andy Schoen
09-29-2011, 06:34 PM
would it be possible to modify the program, so I input the compressor model # instead of system capacity? Existing compressor is already there, I want to know replacement size tubing based on existing compressor.
Thank
Dan Wong

Yes, this would be simple to do. I probably would want to figure out a way to give the user the option to enter compressor model number or system capacity. I would still need to know the evap and condensing temperatures in either case.

dan wong
10-07-2011, 09:16 PM
Yes, this would be simple to do. I probably would want to figure out a way to give the user the option to enter compressor model number or system capacity. I would still need to know the evap and condensing temperatures in either case.

Hi Andy, Any idea when you may have it done?

Something else came to my mind; Many manufacture use Hi temp compressor for medium temp application, example; I often see AE4440yxa ( a hi temp compressor, rated at +45F) used on medium temp equipment (evaporator is +20F. Cabinet temp is normally kept at +35 – 40F).

If you can set the program to accept several different input perimeters like following;
(in addition to what you already have)


Compressor Model # _____________________
BTU@rating point. _________@ ______ (C/F)


Desire out;

Desire evaporator temp ______________(C/F)
( normally +20F for medium temp reach in)

Size of a Cape tube recommended (3 equaling choices);

Id _______inches, length _______________ inches
Id _______inches, length _______________inches
Id _______inches, Length _______________ inches

Andy Schoen
10-08-2011, 08:24 PM
You might find my compressor performance app useful: http://boxload.tecumseh.com/

I'm currently working on my refrigerant line sizing app. I should have it up within the next week. I'll take a look at the capillary tube sizing program next.

itsiceman
10-10-2011, 10:37 PM
Wow Andy great info and calculators/analyzers Keeps getting better
Thanks for taking the time to get that going.
Is there a way onto that page through the main web sight?

Andy Schoen
10-11-2011, 02:51 PM
Is there a way onto that page through the main web sight?

Not at the moment. I've been given this "sandbox" site to play around in and develop useful apps for our main web site.

itsiceman
10-11-2011, 10:12 PM
I used the cap program today on a habitual cap restricting model and really liked the way it ran.
Big Improvement over factory size IMO
Thank You Very Much Andy

FWIW original size was 10' of .046 I used 6' of .052

beeninyourshoes
10-12-2011, 02:30 PM
I know cap tube diameter Is critical as a fixed orifice metering device, but the length is not! Note there may me a extra coil of 4 ft rolled up there & there may not be. Change the cap tube. Now throw the minimum charge in there per the tag inside the box. By the way True & 134a cap tubes are notorious for oil separation. Ok, now you need to take your super heat readings in 2 places. At the suction before the compressor , up to 20 is ok, some Coprland says 30 is ok, but Tecumseh, 20 THERE is ok. Now take super heat reading at the evap after the cap tube goes into the evap. Should be 8 to 14. Also IF you had bad separation and you didn't flush it e flush? Then no matter what you do, you'll come up short, this all has to be done right... Right down to sucking the old oil out to replacing it. On 134a, when the condenser overhears , that POE oil ( is
Acid based) separated and a waxy substance clogged your cap in the first place! Another thing could have been that the other 1/2 of the seperation could have ate through the cap tube. So if u didn't change the oil & simply replaced the cap tube, the new one could be partially clogged w wax and it's fooling u to think it's the charge! Yes like an ice machine, charge IS CRITICAL. also, are you primarily AC over refrigeration? Cause if u r and you dud superheat only at the compressor, you might be overcharged w a flooded evaporator. What's your amp probe say? If it's high to rated. Then she's over charged. I'm telling u all this cause you can't b a DIY in my opinion. Was the condenser clogged or overheated when u arrived? I need to know more, tell me more! I'll help u out.

Andy Schoen
10-12-2011, 09:22 PM
I know cap tube diameter Is critical as a fixed orifice metering device, but the length is not!

You need some big time remedial education. :(


II'm telling u all this cause you can't b a DIY in my opinion. Was the condenser clogged or overheated when u arrived? I need to know more, tell me more! I'll help u out.
And you're likely to remain a guest at this site for a very long time....

KB Cool
10-12-2011, 09:40 PM
Andy,
Your program ask for the heat exchange length. I'm guessing this is how much of the cap tube is in contact with the suction line or ?.
Thanks!

dan wong
10-12-2011, 09:45 PM
Andy,
Your program ask for the heat exchange length. I'm guessing this is how much of the cap tube is in contact with the suction line or ?.
Thanks!

That was something bother me too, a replacement cap tube will not be solder to the suction line. (no heat exchanged)

itsiceman
10-12-2011, 09:58 PM
You can solder it on if you want.

beeninyourshoes
10-13-2011, 12:38 AM
You need some big time remedial education. :(


And you're likely to remain a guest at this site for a very long time....

Have u figured it out yet? Because guys like you go to your grave without EVER knowing anything. I've been at this HVAC/R 30 years now & never been attaked like this. So since you'll probably never figure it out, I'll spell it out for you. Why is it you have no self respect? A person can't respect others before respecting ones self! So MAYBE you need a bit of "advanced" or as you put it "remedial" education on yourself for yourself and for others. You know; go talk to someone to figure it all out. Your fancy words with Mozart? Your not fooling anyone as being elequant in the least. Funny Hitler was Austrian too!

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was Austrian too!

dan wong
10-13-2011, 04:52 AM
Have u figured it out yet? Because guys like you go to your grave without EVER knowing anything. I've been at this HVAC/R 30 years now & never been attaked like this. So since you'll probably never figure it out, I'll spell it out for you. Why is it you have no self respect? A person can't respect others before respecting ones self! So MAYBE you need a bit of "advanced" or as you put it "remedial" education on yourself for yourself and for others. You know; go talk to someone to figure it all out. Your fancy words with Mozart? Your not fooling anyone as being elequant in the least. Funny Hitler was Austrian too!

Sponsors





» Sponsors


was Austrian too!

I take it English is your second language also? Just like me, I have difficulty writing English.

Back to the subject of this thread; we are all looking for good cap tube sizing program. (I need a good cap tube calculation program,) can you write one? Thank you in advance.

icemeister
10-13-2011, 06:21 AM
The heat exchange length represents the length of the cap tube which is physically attached to the suction line. You'll note that Andy's program defaults to a 36" heat exchange length. You can input other lengths if you want, but the minimum is 6".

Try a selection varying the heat exchange length and see what happens to the cap tube size. I think you will be surprised how much an effect that heat exchange has.

http://boxload.tecumseh.com/SelectCapTube.aspx

When I replace cap tubes, I try to get at least some heat exchange length. Sometimes it's may be only a foot or two...or none at all when the physical space or access limitations prevents it. When halfway into a cap tube replacement job and realize there's no way in Hades to reattach the cap tube like before, then I really appreciate the program's ability to add this to its calculations and resize the cap to account for less heat exchange length.

itsiceman
10-13-2011, 07:47 AM
Sometimes I wind it around something like an accumulator when a straight shot is tough.

Also could part of a restriction issue besides size of a cap be location of the HX

Some you see go right off the drier over to the suction line and usually have extra coiled up in the evap while others attach right off the evap and have the extra coiled up on the hot side.

Wouldn't you want to slow down the temp/pressure change to prevent the deposits to the cap wall or does it really matter?

beeninyourshoes
you are absolutely wrong about your theory of cap tube length relationship to dia. and I guess Andy could have just told you straight like that but someone with 30 years experience that hasn't figured this out yet probably irritates him beyond belief especially if you are not willing to continue your education. I just hope some of these guys don't hang it up from pure frustration :whistle:

I got a lot to learn.

Andy Schoen
10-13-2011, 09:16 PM
beeninyourshoes
you are absolutely wrong about your theory of cap tube length relationship to dia. and I guess Andy could have just told you straight like that but someone with 30 years experience that hasn't figured this out yet probably irritates him beyond belief especially if you are not willing to continue your education. I just hope some of these guys don't hang it up from pure frustration :whistle:

I got a lot to learn.

Also been in the trade for 30 years, I have plenty to learn. beeninyourshoes isn't anywhere close to 1st base on this subject. It is sad to think such unknowing individuals can think they can "educate" those with known expertise in the field. :( Hey, beeninyourshoes, explain the Darcy–Weisbach equation to folks here. You may find your length elimination theory problematic. You may Google if necessary. ;)

Andy Schoen
10-22-2011, 09:29 AM
Hi Andy, Is it possible to modify the cap tube program (see attachment)?.
I would be very useful if a particular compressor is already in the system, and I wanted to replace the restricted cap tube.

Edit; I am un-able to up to load attachment. my question is; would it be possible to modify the program, so I input the compressor model # instead of system capacity? Existing compressor is already there, I want to know replacement size tubing based on existing compressor.
Thank
Dan Wong

Have a look-see at my latest update to my capillary tube selection app. It now allows you to pick a compressor model instead of entering a system capacity. http://boxload.tecumseh.com/

Note that the app will generate a listing based on the information entered when the box is checked. If you do not enter an evaporator or condensing temperature, it will list all compressor models for the refrigerant listed in the drop down box. It will be possible to select, for example, a low temp compressor and then enter high temp conditions. This will not produce a result. If you enter evaporator and condensing temperature prior to checking the box, the compressor listing will only list models appropriate for those conditions.

dan wong
10-23-2011, 04:25 PM
Have a look-see at my latest update to my capillary tube selection app. It now allows you to pick a compressor model instead of entering a system capacity. http://boxload.tecumseh.com/

Note that the app will generate a listing based on the information entered when the box is checked. If you do not enter an evaporator or condensing temperature, it will list all compressor models for the refrigerant listed in the drop down box. It will be possible to select, for example, a low temp compressor and then enter high temp conditions. This will not produce a result. If you enter evaporator and condensing temperature prior to checking the box, the compressor listing will only list models appropriate for those conditions.

Thanks for the reply,
I was hoping for somthing similar to this;
Cap tube calculation make easy (fill in as much as possible)

What is known?
Ambient temp _____________ Condensing temp _________________
Fan Cool _____________ Static Cool _____________________
Cabinet space need to be cooled ________________ (cubic foot)
Desire cabinet temperature ___________________

Units of Measurement: C/F _____________ desire evaporator Temp: ________
Refrigerant: ______________
Existing Tube ID if known: __________ Estimate existing Length ____________
Heat Exchange Length: ________________
Your current estimated capacity is; _______________


System Capacity: (if known).
If unknow; Cubic foot of space needs to cool to _________
Select Compressor Model from List

Alternately Enter;
Compressor model ________________________ or
Compressor published data; BTU ___________ @ ____________
Desire box Temp _______________________


Calculate; Base on information provided; recommended cap tube size is
dia _____ length ____________ Estimate Capacity ______________
dia _____ length ____________ Estimate Capacity ______________
dia _____ length ____________ Estimated capacity _____________



A little side note, I work with a large number of foreigners. They often buy used equipment, and or hire the cheapest guy to do the repair, as a result; many pieces of equipment are mis-match Evaporators is usually original. However, compressor size has been upgraded. Cap tube length has been shortened - so forth. By the time they call a licensed professional (like us). It is usually messed up. It is easy to tell the customer to get a new one. However, coming up with the money is impossible - so I do the best I can to keep their equipment running - as long as possible.

itsiceman
10-24-2011, 07:34 AM
Its giving me errors now
With choosing Evap and cond temps should we enter the max (highest cond lowest evap) the box might see or norm?

icemeister
10-24-2011, 09:22 AM
Its giving me errors now
With choosing Evap and cond temps should we enter the max (highest cond lowest evap) the box might see or norm?

I'm not sure if this is what you're referring to when you say "errors", but it appears that Andy Schoen has set upper and lower limits for the condensing temperatures of around 130ºF and 100ºF.

If you select for anything outside those limits you'll get "No model matches criteria".

I usually select for the condensing temperature I would expect at 90ºF ambient.

Andy Schoen
10-24-2011, 08:47 PM
Its giving me errors now
With choosing Evap and cond temps should we enter the max (highest cond lowest evap) the box might see or norm?

A bug has already been reported to me. I'll chase it down soon enough. Choose design evap and condensing temperatures. When in doubt figure 30F above ambient for condensing temperature, 10F below box temp for freezers, 15F below box temp for coolers.