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colorado dave
02-22-2005, 07:38 PM
Has anyone had any experience with the Dolphin by Clearwater? This is a chemical-free water treatment system. the link is http://www.clearwater-dolphin.com

brent
02-23-2005, 12:55 PM
I would also like to hear stories. We will be installing one on a closed circuit cooler maybe in a year. The job didn't start yet. The engineer didn't provide a drain at the cooling tower location so he couldn't use traditional chemical treatment. He then choose this dolphin system. Looking forward to seeing the results. I don't think it will work.

brent

ceng
02-23-2005, 12:58 PM
Brent, would you explain why you don't think it will work? I have seen it Ashrae show and thought it was a decent product. Our firm has started to put it into our prjects. Your input is appreciated!

mattm
02-23-2005, 03:03 PM
Please explain and convince me how it will work. I've been in this bus for 15 years and this same so called technology was around back then and is still trying to get moving.

Paul Pippin
02-23-2005, 03:25 PM
I don't have any pictures but the one we installed has worked great. You still need to blow down the system to get rid of the solids but they don't stick to anything. They are floating around in the bottom of the cooling tower yet not sticking to the surfaces. This tower has been in for over a year and still looks almost new.

mattm
02-23-2005, 05:31 PM
That's intresting Paul. In the past they toted it as a no blow down. Are they all ran at 8 cycles like the site says or is it determined by tds?? I'm just old school and this tecnology turned me off when I personnaly saw systems ruined by this same tech but they toted no blow down.

Paul Pippin
02-23-2005, 05:37 PM
I am not an expert but the way I see it as long as you do a blow down and the particles are not sticking to the equipment then everything works ok. I am old school to I was very doubtful about it until I have seen this one in operation for a year. I ordered a small one ( residential ) not dolphin for a hot water heater that was scaled up. I will let you know how it works. If it does as it says I should be able to see a difference in the heat transfer in about 1 week and almost complete scale dissolved in a month or so. I will let you know.

Paul Pippin
02-23-2005, 05:46 PM
I stand corrected the website had to say about blowdown but Matt like you said I think you need a blowdown. If you filter it then you will have something else to maintain.

"Blowdown quantity is reduced and can be disposed of without the restriction of chemically treated waste. With the addition of an optional filtration system, the blowdown process can be further simplified and/or integrated into a full zero discharge system."

brent
02-24-2005, 10:27 AM
I have no real reason to think it won't work. I am just skeptical. My understanding was that it required no blowdown. Now I know better. I also am not impressed with the price.
We have a very good chemical treatment guy that we work with so I am not looking for alternatives.

brent

Paul Pippin
02-24-2005, 10:41 AM
I agree the price is steep but from what I have seen it may be worth it. With all of the environmental concerns and epa regulations for manufacturing environments it is an option. Plus there isn't a monthly or weekly fee on chemical treatment. We still use chemicals also in some places. I doubt there will ever be a cure all.

rowe25
02-24-2005, 12:05 PM
We installed 6 of them last year on evap. condensers. They work very well provided they work long enough. We have to run the sump pumps longer than the compressors to get the full effect. You still need to blowdown based on conductivity but now you're not restricted on where you can drain to. In our case we were next to public water supply.

mattm
02-24-2005, 07:30 PM
From what is said so far it sounds promising but the only ones mentioned so far have been in use for around a year. Of course if you're not seeing the nasties growing or build up on condensor tubes that's a good sign since going without treatment can begin tube fouling mighty quick in hot weather. I think it would be nice to hear from some that's been in for 5+ years.

umd
03-30-2005, 10:47 PM
I think it is a pretty strong endorsement of a system when a major manufacturer like Mammoth (with long history with evap-cooled units) offers it as an option on their new units.

viceman
03-31-2005, 06:23 PM
i've been involved with the system for several years.

the pvc models will break if there is pipe movement. a building guy shut a butterfly valve, the pipe shook and it broke.

when installed in brand new systems the building engineers loved them.

when installed with existing pipe and systems such as a new chiller plant on an existing system there are obviously more problems. they seem to blow down on the conductivity meter constantly. the coupons got eaten.

i am not a water treatment engineer but one of the developers of the system came to the site and basicaly said it clumps up the crud and blows it down. they do not claim to get rid of bugs if that is a concern.

we installed them on some 15 hp steam boilers. on the condensate system and it seemed to work well.



the engineer told me they working on a de-salination(?) system to make sea water potable.

flippurr
03-02-2007, 09:11 PM
Include a sand filtration system with a Dolphin system. One that has an automatic purge or something like that and I think that might work really great. Just bid on a big job where the engineer called for just that and we recommended the two system together instead of chemical treatment. If it is a go I will let you know how it works.

acjourneyman
03-03-2007, 12:46 AM
We installed a VRTX system a year ago with a ZGF filter system and it seems to work well.I was and still am a little sceptical of how it will work long term but in my case it has too, the drain goes directly into a fresh river system with spawning salmon, steelhead etc., so there is no chemical alternative.We still do blowdown and initially I had to do pipe pacification and pump it off site but the sumps are clean and so is the water.I am going to drop a head off of the condensor in a week and see how it looks, alot of the jobs we look after have heavy silica build up with chemical treatment so what do we have to lose.

nun
03-03-2007, 01:17 AM
Without reading everyones posts I will tell you IT DOES NOT WORK. DO NOT WASTE YOUR MONEY OR REPUTATION ON THIS PRODUCT. Do a search on this site. We talked a while back on this. If you would like some refrences let me know I will give you some building managers phone #s.

mikep
03-03-2007, 02:14 AM
Read everything on their website and it sounds like the old magnets on the water pipe scam. They both claim to transform calcium carbonate so it will not stick to surfaces. Calgon and Virginia sold them clamp on magnets for years (18-20 years ago or so) and many people swore by them. They sold 1000s. Put it in a new package with a picture of Flipper. Bite them in the ass again.

Randy S.
03-03-2007, 11:22 AM
Tubes were in good shape, but we brushed anyhow.

Tower sump has some build up that we will clean out before start-up.

We don't have the longest or hottest cooing seasons here, though.

We continued to use a bromine based biocide, mainly because we can't take chances. Some others in the area are reporting algae if your tower has sunlight directly on the sump.

UW hospital in Seattle has some with a couple years on them. They still used biocide, too.

I'm still not convinced one way or the other on the Dolphin.

For closed loop stuff, check out the "Elysator" a magnesium anode and centrifugal solid separator device.

mikep
03-06-2007, 10:47 PM
Here is a very telling link about the Flipper. I like the part about when they looked at the electronics and found nothing more that a transformer and induction coil connected to a spool wraped with insulated wire. System cost $78K. They got burned bigtime.
http://www.prochemtech.com/Literature/Case_Histories/dolphin1.html

low pressure guy
03-08-2007, 10:16 PM
I've Installed 6 Of These Systems On Steam Boiler Open Loop ,cooling Towers , Make Up Tanks And Make Up Water Fills They All Are Junk . Even On New Piping Systems .

andrewr1701
03-20-2007, 11:14 PM
Here are some questions I would love to have answered...has anyone done any legionella testing on water treated by a dolphin system? has anyone tested sessile bacteria? has anyone run high cycles on towers serviced by a dolphin system (and 4 cycles is not high)? has any dolphin systems been installed in areas where the MU water has high hardness? Were you introduced to these systems by a cooling tower manufacturer rep? There is more than meets the eye...

brandewski
03-21-2007, 07:25 PM
i take care of a building with approx 225 water source heat pumps....basic system consisting of two water loops, two towers, two booilers to keep loop temp up in winter, etc....the big problem is both towers have THE DOLPHIN!!!! both towers are three years old and are basically trash, the tubes are completely covered with scale and cannot by any means get it off..i have to drain and shovel, and yes i said shovel out the scale from the sump bottom and refill with new water...this is in canton oh who hsa terrible water for make up to respond to the previos reply...i cannot say enough about not going with the dolphin....blowdowns are a joke they dont work at all...believe it or not, these towers have sump pumps that run 24 hours a day in the summer ot keep the loop temps hovering at 95 degrees....just lsat year i had one of these pumps seize up from scale in the impeller twice and remind you that the thing runs 24 hours a day!!! i could go on but i will keep tabs on this thread to respond to any questions that you guys may have about this system....i am currently begging the customer to throw it out, get me a chemical guy in there and straighten this thing out

andrewr1701
03-22-2007, 07:34 AM
CALL NALCO COMPANY...They cost a little more but you will not have any problems and they will straighten out your mess...

slamers
02-18-2009, 12:38 PM
Regarding the Dolphin system:
Has anyone found a common denominator? I find it hard to believe a product such as this surviving if it performs so badly. If however these products are being installed and managed by unqualified people then I understand completely. But the tug of war on success and failure regarding this project just dosen't add up. It's like NASCAR the best car isn't a guaranteed winner.

blabath
02-18-2009, 05:26 PM
I have a hospital that tried the "water softening magnets" for about three years on parrallel copper pipes, they tore the pipe out after three years and found absolutely NO difference between the pipe with the bizillion dollar magnets on them and the "untreated" pipes. They pulled out similar sections of pipe in about three locations and split it and inspected it. This was domestic cold water serving the entire hospital laundry room, so volume was quite high. The chief engineer actually took out the original pipe feeding the system and parrallel piped the feed just to test these bad boys out.
I think they ended up in the junk barrell.

The Dolphin seems to be claiming the exact same technology as these magnets did.

PT Barnum said it best.... "There's a sucker born every minute":D

HvAckid82
02-18-2009, 06:26 PM
we have a customer that has it on a 100 ton chiller and NO problems. Before with chemical treatment we had to punch the tubes every 6 months and now with this system we have yet to clean the tubes in 3 yrs. We pull the heads off and take a peak and the tubes are clean. The approach is just what the manufacture designed it for. But the problem with the dolphin is that it's not 3rd party approved and they only offer a 30 day warranty.

I see evapco has something out on the market that is supposed to be a chemical free system that they give a 100% guarantee for a year or your money back. Anyone have anything to say about those units? I never saw it in person.

slamers
02-18-2009, 06:39 PM
I also work in the hospital community and really don't know a lot about the dolphin, grew up working with all the major water treatment companies. I can say this much with confidence, we have a large customer that has been using this product since 1994 on 4 large chiller/ tower systems absolutely loves it and will never turn back. I need more info to really get a handle on the underlying problems because it shouldn't work great under any circumstances with all the negative feedback on this forum.

toy501
02-18-2009, 07:09 PM
I would like to see a coupon rack installed with the same alloys used in the barrel and the tower and see if any deteriation of metals overtime before i consider putting that stuff on multi-million dollar equipment.

sensordev
10-12-2009, 02:06 PM
I've been in the instrumentation side of cooling tower control since the late 60s and have to agree with those here who suggest great caution when considering one of these electrical magic-treatment systems. If you read their fine print, they control corrosion by ostensibly keeping the water in a slight scaling condition. When you do that, heavy scale can result from even moderate changes in water chemistry and the corrosion protection is literally hair-thin. That's a dicey way to protect a few million dollars worth of equipment.

Rob-GWS
10-12-2009, 07:24 PM
While I was browsing, I happened to find this site. I am a regional manager for Griswold Water Systems. We manufacture the SBC. It is similar to the Dolphin in concept (the Pulse-Pure is a reverse engineered Dolphin unit), however our implementation and approach is unique. If you want a competitive comparison see our website or email me (rob at griswoldwatersystems dot com).

The reason that I am joining the conversation is to answer some of the questions that were posted.

1. How does it work If you really want to know, either download our white paper from our website (www.griswoldwatersystems.com) or send me an email (rob at griswoldwatersystems dot com). I will take as much time as you would like and will go into as much detail as you really want to know.

Rob-GWS
10-12-2009, 07:25 PM
2. Risk - We will REFUND your money if we cannot get it to work. Give us 90 days to do our best though. We have yet to take one back. There is no risk!
3. Corrosion Corrosion is usually controlled by a thin layer of calcium that is precipitated out due to saturation. We also cycle the water to raise the pH above 7. In some cases this is not sufficient and we require a corrosion inhibitor.
4. Legionella We have done a lot of legionella and bacteria testing in general. Of all the things that these systems do, bacteria count is perhaps the best. I have seen reports of 20 CFU/ML (drinking water is 500CFU/ML), but 1,000CFU/ML is common. Our unit actually does a great job of eradicating biofilm as well.
5. Cycles of concentration Cycles of concentration is totally determined by the quality of the water. In Las Vegas 3.5 or 4 cycles is pretty high, but in Seattle 12 cycles is considered high.
6. Closed loop Very good application for scale and bacteria control, but we need a corrosion inhibitor because we cannot cycle up the water.

Rob-GWS
10-12-2009, 07:26 PM
7. Coupon rack I always recommend coupon racks as well. This is especially true if our water analysis indicates that corrosion may be a problem.

Please let me know if you have any other questions.

SEI
10-19-2009, 12:16 PM
I have researched this one as well but I have clients that demand zero bacteria. The best design I have researched so far is a combination of two products. One for solids and one for biological. The two products work together very well and I have toured 10+ sites with the combination ranging from 200 ton chiller/tower combos to 11,000 ton combos that run 24-7 for production/process cooling. I have also seen installs on steam and hot water boilers at various universities and hospitality sites.

I have been tasked with finding this solution and sourcing it with some other peripherals and am now convinced that what I have discovered is the ticket.

The sites I did not visit I have called and gotten rave revues from the facility engineers. (I consider a rave revue a statement along the lines of "yeah we installed in 97 and have not had a problem. We don't even think about water treatment anymore until we get call from the company telling us our levels are out of parameter due to mechanical failure or we need to change an anode).

Furthermore the pulse systems are box of moving parts that break and wear out. Not to mention they use a power source. The biggest deal though is that while they are effective by most accounts, they are invasive and require some plumbing.

We are two months into our first pilot with the new stuff. An old 240 ton McQuay and a 25 year old BAC. The site has a very capable full time HVAC mechanic that has been there for a dozen years. He was very happy to have bleed set at 800 and in less than a month he is at 2600 and rising. His before and after bleed reading show that they are averaging 11,000 gallons a week savings thus far.

We plan to crack the condenser in December and run Eddy Currents.

I do not want to say anything bad about any of the pulse tech outfits because they do demonstrate a level of success that is in my opinion superior to the antiquated method of dealing with a chemical vendor and trusting them with your equipment, but there are combinations that are superior to the pulse from a treatment standpoint and eliminate some of the drawbacks that come along with pulse.

If saving water, energy, chemicals, maintenance, and asset life are your real goals there are better options than pulse out there that cost less across the board in my professional opinion.

SEI
10-19-2009, 12:44 PM
CALL NALCO COMPANY...They cost a little more but you will not have any problems and they will straighten out your mess...


I have copies of documentation from NALCO laboratories in my possession that show their product directly against what I have been researching and the physical treatment blew NALCOs treatment out of the water on both mild steel and copper coupons. (<0.1 mpy MS; .2mpy COPPER)

The test site is a VERY well known global corporation (and a former NALCO account) and the letter from the company detailed that the "chemical company" requested their name not be use in any correspondence to the alternative treatment mfr.. But the site engineer supplied the lab results to the mfr..

Again. NALCO performed the tests in their labs and the results are on NALCO Laboratory Services letterhead. About 8 pages worth of testing and a facility with the alternative treatment used throughout to back that testing up. Let's face it, people forge all kinds of crazy stuff since the word "green" was first uttered in this country so I checked it out.

BTW install and testing was done in 1990. Said site was approached by myself March of this year and original engineer is gone now but the site is still very happy and has had "no problems". No problems equates to no further investment since and no replaced assets according to the engineer now in charge. Said alternative product is guaranteed for 25 years, full replacement, comes with one year money back, and one full year mechanical insurance binder. You basically get a year to watch for fouling and if it does foul you get your cash back and your mechanicals serviced or replaced. (no brainer). Company has been in business for 20 plus years, is debt free, and has documented (as well as published) clients that you can call dating back to the late 80's. The owner and patent holder claim 0 claims on insurance and zero requests for money back. I cannot confirm or deny that obviously.

Chemicals are antiquated treatment. If you are not considering options now you are already behind schedule in my opinion.

flange
10-19-2009, 07:56 PM
We started six Wooly mammoth systems a few years ago for a client who is known to be difficult. Each has its own flipper onboard in the evap condenser. no problems so far, but the sump does have to be cleaned from time to time to remove the "film". These units run pretty hard for a minimum of 7-8 months per year. from what i have seen lately of water treatment, i would take the dolphin over a water treatment tech.

SEI
10-19-2009, 08:12 PM
I've been in the instrumentation side of cooling tower control since the late 60s and have to agree with those here who suggest great caution when considering one of these electrical magic-treatment systems. If you read their fine print, they control corrosion by ostensibly keeping the water in a slight scaling condition. When you do that, heavy scale can result from even moderate changes in water chemistry and the corrosion protection is literally hair-thin. That's a dicey way to protect a few million dollars worth of equipment.

I think you may need to study up a bit more. There are many crap-companies out there that claim a lot of BS but there are that work very effectively.

It's not magic. Just because youi don't understand it fully does not mean that it's magic at all. A select few of the ones I have been hired to research and oft-times disprove are more dependable and consistent than the chemical treatment vendors out there.

teckster
10-19-2009, 08:30 PM
The first thing I reccomend is look to see who is sueing them.... We put one in and it does not work the 600 ton chillers (2) have been cleaned twice in the last 6 months and the unit does not work. Beware of the snake oil devices and use something that has proven itself.

sensordev
10-19-2009, 08:41 PM
I think you may need to study up a bit more. There are many crap-companies out there that claim a lot of BS but there are that work very effectively.

Well, lemme see -- if there are many crap-companies out there, as you say (and there are, we agree there) wouldn't that suggest caution, just as I said? If I had meant to say that none of them work, I'd have done so. I've never seen one that does but I haven't come close to seeing them all.

SEI
10-20-2009, 09:25 AM
Well, lemme see -- if there are many crap-companies out there, as you say (and there are, we agree there) wouldn't that suggest caution, just as I said? If I had meant to say that none of them work, I'd have done so. I've never seen one that does but I haven't come close to seeing them all.

I agree with the caution statement 100%. I have poured through all that I have found out there and my firm was hired to do just that. Use caution and due diligence to disprove as many as we can in hopes that some pop out as potential candidates with real merit.

It has been over a year that I have studied these products and I cannot mention the solution we are 99% sure to have found (testing to complete by year end) as part of the contract but when statements like "snake oil" and Magic box are used sometimes they are used as a blanket and work in favor of what I have surprisingly found to be a very nervous chemical lobby out there.

HVAC is not my field but I have learned quite a bit in the last year and employed the knowledge of many experts to complete my task. Most technologies including the pulse technologies have some merit but have limited success stories and work in limited situations. Also in those situations there are still drawbacks in my opinion.

The only thing to have the track record and work in all sorts of heating and cooling installs all over the world blows the pulse out of the water IMO. I am certain to have put more time in this than the average mechanic/tech in the field as it has been the number one priority and while I don't have a stake in any of the products one way or another it is a bit irritating to hear people making blanket statements and not knowing what needs to be known. That kind of fear is what plays directly into the hands of the chemical vendors and their propaganda that nothing but chems work.

That simply is not the case at all.

sensordev
10-20-2009, 11:58 AM
SEI, your comments are well taken even if the details are sparse. I tend to give the benefit of the doubt on these kinds of forums and I have no cause to doubt you because you've offered none. As far as blanket statements about magic-treatment ("snake oil" was not my term), the history of magnetic and electromagnetic cooling water treatments didn't get that tag from people who don't understand the theory, they got it from heavily damaging many of the systems on which they were installed. That much I have seen. And I'm not tied to the chemical treatment, just water chemical property measurements.

SEI
10-20-2009, 12:57 PM
SEI, your comments are well taken even if the details are sparse. I tend to give the benefit of the doubt on these kinds of forums and I have no cause to doubt you because you've offered none. As far as blanket statements about magic-treatment ("snake oil" was not my term), the history of magnetic and electromagnetic cooling water treatments didn't get that tag from people who don't understand the theory, they got it from heavily damaging many of the systems on which they were installed. That much I have seen. And I'm not tied to the chemical treatment, just water chemical property measurements.

I too have run into these horror stories. bar magnets, wire around a pipe, etc.

This has muddied the waters (understatement) and the theory is definitely not a new one behind the idea of a physical treatment.

The fact remains however that a solution is needed. One that saves water, provides cathodic protection and allows for further peripherals to be added to these larger towers (water mongers) to facilitate reclamation of waste. Lots of ideas are out there that allow for water to be used more effectively in existing systems but the chemicals are almost always the stumbling block for them.

That is somewhat to the point of my being commissioned the last year and change to help determine. The search has not been easy and we are not done yet but I am getting excited about the possibilities enough to read forums such as this and gauge perception out there.

I understand completely about the lack of details and I wish I could share more here but my contract stipulates otherwise unfortunately. As soon as the package is protected and on way to market I will update if there is any real interest here.

Thanks for your comments. I hope I have not in any way offended anyone here. That was not my intent.

:cheers:

sensordev
10-20-2009, 04:21 PM
No offense at all, snappy back and forths are good from time to time. I'd be interested in any followup you want to post. Best to you in your endeavor.

Randy S.
10-20-2009, 11:59 PM
For closed loop systems check out the "Elysator" a centrifugal solids separator and magnesium anode kind of thing. They do work.

Randy S.
10-21-2009, 12:16 AM
I am familiar with one Dolphin installation in the greater Pugetopolis area. It also uses the typical conductivity based bleed control, and it runs at a set point of 750, which around here comes out to around 6 cycles.

One thing you want to do its be sure your bleed controller is interlocked with the condenser pump so it only can bleed when the system is running. We also are set up so the pumps and the Dolphin will run at least once a week for a couple hours during the chiller season.

My guess is that the Evapco product is actually pulsed, while the Dolphin looks to me like little more that a fancy multi-tap transformer.

At the end of the day, you can buy an awful lot of chemicals for the price of any of the electronic gizmos.

CondenserMan
11-18-2009, 04:31 PM
I just wanted to pipe in with my 2 cents. We use chemicals on our Condensers and Towers but I know managers who use the Dolphin and are satisfied. I have recently found out interesting stuff:
1. I now know that Evapco actually STOLE the Dolphin, by hiring away the chief scientist from Dolphin. Who was a personal friend of the president. They are still in a patent suit over it. I also know that Evapco steals stuff this way from BAC all the time. They do not actually invent anything. Of course, they make a good tower. Anyway, the PulsePure is exactly the same as the Dolphin except for some tweaks to try to get around the patent.
2. Only Dolphin and VRTX actually work. All the others are indeed snake oil it seems. The problem with VRTX is it is too damn expensive.
3. I also learned that the reason that a few Dolphins have failed over the years is because of poor service by the reps. Things like ****ed up controllers and conductivity probes and blowdown valves and such. You know what Dolphin has done to fix this recurring problem for them, they have teamed up with a freaking chemical company! They hate chemical companies. DuBois Chem does monthly service on all new Dolphins and can handle the chemicals on boilers and closed systems. Dolphin gets the monthly "competent" service they need and DuBois gets customers. With this service deal, Dolphin's warranty is 10 years now. Though you need to start paying DuBois after the first year.
4. I also found out that Dolphin used to have problems with very hard water (and Evapco won't touch hard water). But now Dolphin has a solution for all water. They just need super filtration on hard water. So they sell a centrifigal seperator like Lakos or Puroflux and it works fine then. They call it an Otter, but I told the rep they should call it the catfish.
5. Of course, our chemicals are working fine so I am not sure if it will pay for us to switch. It is a big capital expense.

SEI
05-27-2010, 05:00 PM
I just wanted to pipe in with my 2 cents. We use chemicals on our Condensers and Towers but I know managers who use the Dolphin and are satisfied. I have recently found out interesting stuff:
1. I now know that Evapco actually STOLE the Dolphin, by hiring away the chief scientist from Dolphin. Who was a personal friend of the president. They are still in a patent suit over it. I also know that Evapco steals stuff this way from BAC all the time. They do not actually invent anything. Of course, they make a good tower. Anyway, the PulsePure is exactly the same as the Dolphin except for some tweaks to try to get around the patent.
2. Only Dolphin and VRTX actually work. All the others are indeed snake oil it seems. The problem with VRTX is it is too damn expensive.
3. I also learned that the reason that a few Dolphins have failed over the years is because of poor service by the reps. Things like ****ed up controllers and conductivity probes and blowdown valves and such. You know what Dolphin has done to fix this recurring problem for them, they have teamed up with a freaking chemical company! They hate chemical companies. DuBois Chem does monthly service on all new Dolphins and can handle the chemicals on boilers and closed systems. Dolphin gets the monthly "competent" service they need and DuBois gets customers. With this service deal, Dolphin's warranty is 10 years now. Though you need to start paying DuBois after the first year.
4. I also found out that Dolphin used to have problems with very hard water (and Evapco won't touch hard water). But now Dolphin has a solution for all water. They just need super filtration on hard water. So they sell a centrifigal seperator like Lakos or Puroflux and it works fine then. They call it an Otter, but I told the rep they should call it the catfish.
5. Of course, our chemicals are working fine so I am not sure if it will pay for us to switch. It is a big capital expense.

Good info on Dolphin and the others. I have researched and found similar information. I have had initial success with a different product however. The 10 year warranty of the Dolphin was not sufficient for me anyway. However Cathodic protection is theoretically achievable without electronic gizmos. We are still in the early stages with multiple sites so I will not pimp the company yet but the initial results are quite compelling. Hard water is not an issue at all and no additional filtration is needed. Some larger units/sites are experimenting with centrifuge and vortex but only on the bleed side. Yes, these guys are recycling their blowdown and using it as primary makeup as there are no longer any chemicals to cause issues. I have personally visited 4 sites that have successfully maintained 2500+ ppm without any fouling for 60 days plus. Its getting hotter now so I am closely monitoring these sites to see when they decide to back off. During the tests the company is overseeing tube inspection monthly to verify what head pressure, delta T, and in/out ppm readings on condenser side are telling them. So far so good. There may be something to this after all.

Fingers crossed!

BTW I am taking these readings as gospel based on what the company reps are telling me. I am seeing them for myself but if there are other ways to test effective water treatment aside from visually in the towers or the things in bold above I would LOVE to be educated. This is not my field as I think I have stated before but I am intrigued. In any case if anyone wishes to share how they choose to keep their treatment provider in check it would be immensely appreciated. I believe pros on this board would not all be taking their vendors word for success.

Randy S.
05-28-2010, 10:26 PM
We had some of the hottest weather last year that this area has ever seen.
But only for a week or so.

But I still have to say the relatively soft water on this side of the Cascades has something to do with it. Also, this is part load country, and we don't usually run the percentage load here that many other places see.

But I do have to say that the condenser tubes looked as good as our chemical treated machines. So, here at least, it does seem to kinda sorta work.
But there is a lot more stuff dropping out in the flat bottomed tower on this system. So, there has to be more sump cleaning than the chemical treated towers.

I'd like to hear from somebody with harder water and a Dolphin.
That would be the real test.

:anyone:

YESITDOES
10-26-2010, 12:58 PM
I think you may need to study up a bit more. There are many crap-companies out there that claim a lot of BS but there are that work very effectively.

It's not magic. Just because youi don't understand it fully does not mean that it's magic at all. A select few of the ones I have been hired to research and oft-times disprove are more dependable and consistent than the chemical treatment vendors out there.
This topic interests me as well, SEI ,where are you located??

waterworld
11-17-2010, 09:09 PM
Oh Dear God, I can't beleive there are still people out there advocating the Dolphin! I am a Chemist; I do understand the technology; I understand that the technology is BS. You could pee in a tower and call it successful water treatment if you run the cycles low enough. Why is something called 'green' if it does nothing but waste water and electricity.

THE DOLPHIN DOES NOTHING. And whoever it was who said the Dolphin 'blew Nalco away', I dont know what you are reading or who gave you that document, and as a matter of fact, I dont much like Nalco, but there is no scientific possibility that the Dolphin could out perform chemicals. If you have something that says it can, upload it and I will debunk it in about 30 seconds.

9675
11-17-2010, 09:45 PM
I dont know much about water treatment but i do know that dolphin does blow nalco away----by the amount of water that is blown down the drain HAHA!!!!

waterworld
11-17-2010, 10:07 PM
I dont know much about water treatment but i do know that dolphin does blow nalco away----by the amount of water that is blown down the drain HAHA!!!!

Damn straight! I just wrote up a little thing on the Dolphin. It is here (http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=683791)

YESITDOES
11-17-2010, 10:54 PM
Oh Dear God, I can't beleive there are still people out there advocating the Dolphin! I am a Chemist; I do understand the technology; I understand that the technology is BS. You could pee in a tower and call it successful water treatment if you run the cycles low enough. Why is something called 'green' if it does nothing but waste water and electricity.

THE DOLPHIN DOES NOTHING. And whoever it was who said the Dolphin 'blew Nalco away', I dont know what you are reading or who gave you that document, and as a matter of fact, I dont much like Nalco, but there is no scientific possibility that the Dolphin could out perform chemicals. If you have something that says it can, upload it and I will debunk it in about 30 seconds.
Dolphin:LOL: Like i said our system uses a patented scale control unit, liquid solid seperator, copper silver bar (ionizer), purge valve, sweeper jets in the tower basin,- treated towers for years like this, at the most we would use a little bleach to oxidize the organics. You are correct that there is junk out there, my system dosent happen to be one of those, Iam not able to add you as a friend on here , for some reason the browser will not allow me to, how else can we get together because i would like to speak with you and iam unable to post a web site due to board restrictions :CU:

zartangreen
11-18-2010, 02:14 AM
This Dolphin sparked a lot of new members,,


I normally look for at least 30 posts within a fair time range.


Pleasure 2 have a chemist on board.. (his 1 post seem the value of my ten) He's the one exception

YESITDOES
11-18-2010, 10:07 AM
This Dolphin sparked a lot of new members,,


I normally look for at least 30 posts within a fair time range.


Pleasure 2 have a chemist on board.. (his 1 post seem the value of my ten) He's the one exception

It is unbelievable to me how Dolphin can sell that product, it is completely useless and any engineer worth their weight knows this and can figure it out right away, it has been speculated that the tower manufacturers and chemical companies are behind this product so as they are able to say " see these physical water treatment systems dont work" "the best thing to do is load up on corrosive and toxic chemicals, thats the best way" I know we always get the " is this like the dolphin system" at which i cant help but laugh and then provide 12+ years worth of installation references ! :rules::rules: In all honesty the dolphin ppl should held accountable for fraud

9675
11-18-2010, 02:20 PM
SEI,
I have no water treatment experience here just chiller mech, but i have common sense, in an earlier post you said tube inspections every month, that it self is not a good study because you are draining all that water in tubes and this doesnt happen in real world, so rather then inspect tubes every month why not check after one year, this is a real life test.
PS do you remember the adds for prolong oil additive the motor would run with oil drained and spray with water, you know what oil does it lubricates, you know what water does it lubricates, so again smoke and mirrors if you keep putting new water in of course it will stay clean.

awe
08-16-2011, 10:51 AM
As MattM mentioned - he'd be interested to find out how the Dolphin's were working 5 years later.

Well - it's over 6 years later and i was wondering if anyone could let me know what their experiences are?

------------------------------------------------
Water Treatment (http://www.awe-ltd.co.uk)

nun
08-16-2011, 11:20 AM
six years later still junk. Hard to beat a good chem company.

awe
08-16-2011, 11:40 AM
Thanks Nun!

Short & sweet!

-----------------------------------

Water Treatment (http://www.awe-ltd.co.uk)

YESITDOES
08-16-2011, 03:20 PM
six years later still junk. Hard to beat a good chem company.very possible thou:grin2: true that a good chem company is nice, but there are several "physical" treatment methods that have proven themselves

Terlyntech
06-17-2013, 03:14 PM
Hello All,

I ran across this thread, so I thought I would add my two cents. I work for and have personally installed and serviced a three-chemical cooling tower water treatment system that runs at 50 cycles of concentration! This system is the Terlyn Cooling Tower Water Conservation Program.

The system is almost identical to traditional water treatment's 3 chemical setup except for one big advantage; the CWT3 liquid scale inhibitor. This scale inhibitor raises the saturation point of the system water so dramatically, that traditional 3 cycle blowdown is reduced by over 90% with no scale formation, excellent corrosion rates, and good biological control.

Check out our website at Only Professional Members may advertise their websites here.



Now the GSA, NREL, and Denver Water are doing a third party report as to the success of the system with the intention of promoting it to be adopted throughout the Federal Government.

waterworld
06-17-2013, 04:04 PM
Hello All,

I ran across this thread, so I thought I would add my two cents. I work for and have personally installed and serviced a three-chemical cooling tower water treatment system that runs at 50 cycles of concentration! This system is the Terlyn Cooling Tower Water Conservation Program.

The system is almost identical to traditional water treatment's 3 chemical setup except for one big advantage; the CWT3 liquid scale inhibitor. This scale inhibitor raises the saturation point of the system water so dramatically, that traditional 3 cycle blowdown is reduced by over 90% with no scale formation, excellent corrosion rates, and good biological control.

Check out our website at Removed Link



Now the GSA, NREL, and Denver Water are doing a third party report as to the success of the system with the intention of promoting it to be adopted throughout the Federal Government.

Thanks for chiming in... a little bit of a dead thread though.

Anyhow, that's interesting. I have many questions though. How do you deal with Silica? Keeping hardness in solution isn't that big of a deal. It's preventing Silica deposition which can only be removed using hydrofluoric acid. In Southern California our silica averages about 25 - 80 ppm. There is a maximum solubility of 175 ppm in condensing water and if you use a patented polymer you can push that to 300 ppm... barely.

Other than Silica, what about the PM-10 and PM-2.5 issue upcoming in the Federal Government and already in place in Nevada. The legal TDS limit in a cooling tower or evaporative condenser in NV is 2500 ppm. If you go higher you are considered a 'polluter' and fined as such, (sounds absurd but it's true - look it up). If you tried this in NV your customer would be in big doo doo. Also, the California ARB is implementing that same standard within the next few years. How will you deal with that? And as I said, the Fed's are looking at making it a national implementation.

Another point you should consider... high TDS water has much less efficient heat transfer than lower TDS water. Without getting into the science of it, think of a pot of water you want to boil. It is a fact that adding salt to the water increases the boiling point from 100 C to around 106 C. This also applies to the evaporation of water. The more TDS the more heat retention of the water... good for cooking - bad for evaporative cooling. So you save some money on water - which is cheap, but you pay the Piper for increased electricity costs from having to make the chillers work harder to remove the same amount of heat - no bueno.

You also have to understand the corrosive nature of what you are doing. Most towers have a stainless steel basin - okay so you cycle up makeup water with 100 ppm of native chlorides... at 50 cycles. That's 5,000 ppm of chlorides. That will cause stress cracking on the stainless... no corrosion inhibitor can stop that. And it will likely have a deleterious effect on galvanized as well since the pH of heavily cycled water will be higher than galvanized can withstand, (around 9).

Lastly... all cooling towers that are newly installed will void the warranty if you run TDS levels as high as you are advocating. It's in the manual of just about any cooling tower. You have to stay within the manufacturers recommendations during the warranty period. So how do you deal with that?

You're not the first high cycle guy in the world...

And by the way... you said you wanted to leave your two cents. On what? All you did was advertise for your product on this board - which isn't allowed here.

Have fun!

jpsmith1cm
06-18-2013, 06:02 AM
Moved thread to tech to tech commercial

steve36558
06-19-2013, 01:08 AM
I know several ( 5 or 6 that I know of)markets here in Phoenix had removed them after a year in service. Units weren't keeping water condensers clean enough so the pulled them.

duckman373
06-19-2013, 05:01 PM
Who are you with in Phx?

-Rob
08-15-2014, 06:17 PM
I know that this thread is considered "dead", but I still hear about my previous posts (Rob-GWS), so I thought that I would revive it just to post an update on my experience.

While I had very few failures with a previous chemical free water treatment system, I am now working with a newer generation of technology by Flow-Tech Systems that propagates a measurable signal throughout the water channel. The signal is conducted into the water and is measurable with an oscilloscope throughout the system. It has proven successful on numerous sites where Dolphin failed - including the ASHRAE project (1361-RP) that concluded that the five different technologies tested did not work. It achieved a 98% (1-3 log) reduction of biofilm when ASHRAE performed the test with Flow-Tech hardware. The system is used in the petro-chemical, mining, heavy industrial, residential, and now the commercial HVAC markets.

I am not posting this to start an argument about chemicals vs. chemical-free. Chemicals have there use. I am simply stating that there is documented success of chemical-free water treatment by a respected scientific organization - ASHRAE. If you are interested in learning more, please visit Flow-Tech's website at: http://flowtechsystems.com/

For full disclosure, I do work for Flow-Tech, but I came to this forum to answer a request made earlier that someone post when a chemical-free system actually passes a test by a respected scientific organization.

Nuclrchiller
08-18-2014, 10:08 AM
Have a link to an unbiased third party?

jayguy
08-18-2014, 01:52 PM
It isn't that we don't want chemical-free systems...i REALLY want this "technology concept" to work....it is just that I have to deal-with and clean-up after it doesn't.

-Rob
08-18-2014, 02:21 PM
I do not know if ASHRAE or the University of Pittsburgh (Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering) have posted the results anywhere, but this link shows the data and a brief explanation: http://flowtechsystems.com/about-us/results/ The scientific evidence and real-world results are repeatable and consistently positive.

If you would like to discuss this in more detail, please contact me through this forum or through Flow-Tech System's website. My direct contact information is not the company website, but if you ask for Rob, they will connect us. I would post more information here, but I do not want this to become an advertisement.

mikep
08-20-2014, 07:46 PM
The same song and dance with a new beat; radio waves of a certain frequency that will reverse the charge of an atom so it will not stick to your pipes. Not even the super collider can transform a proton into an electron. But your radio wave device that plugs into a 110v outlet changes the physics of the universe. Please post a link to your Nobel Prize.

-Rob
08-20-2014, 08:15 PM
I came on this board to post an answer. I have no desire to sling mud with you. Jayguy's response is perfectly understandable and appropriate. He has been burned and wants to do his homework before jumping on a new bandwagon.

Mikep, Your attitude and demeanor indicate that you not only are not open to new technologies in chemical free water treatment, but that you are antagonistic towards such efforts. We have nothing to hide with our technology and would love to do a trial proving to you that it does work. We would even take care of the clean-up cost if it were to fail. My concern, however, is that if independent third party tests from recognized scientific institutions do not have any influence over your opinion, I am not sure that a successful trial would either. Regardless, my offer stands. Please contact me directly if you truly want to learn more.

It is easy to continue the tired mantra that there can never be a successful chemical free water treatment device. There is a lot at stake for those that work with chemicals. Remember that there were a lot of people that died with their beloved ice-boxes because they did not believe in refrigerators...

mikep
08-20-2014, 10:22 PM
There once was a highly reputable company that developed a percussion device that added low level sound waves into a piping system. The theory was that the vibration would cause existing scale to fall off the tubing and prevent future scale from sticking to pipe. However, the calcium ions did not care that the surface was energized and in motion because atoms continue to do exactly what they are design to do. My post is not antagonistic or anti-new technology. The intent was educate. Good luck with your product.