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ChillerWisperer
08-15-2009, 08:27 PM
I am having a "discussion" with my boss, more of an argument really, over how to recover and clean R-11 and 123. When I worked for Trane and we had to pull the gas from a machine, I would have a specialty recovery company owned by a friend of mine recover the gas and leave it onsite so we could put it back into the machine when we had completed repairs. A lot of the time, if the gas had no moisture, air or oil in it, I would just charge it back into the machine as liquid (chilled water pump running and vapor charge from deep vacuum to 16" Hg, then liquid for the rest of the charge). If there was excessive moisture, or especially oil, I would distill it back in as vapor through a four core shell and just leave a 3/4" hose hooked up to the machine with a band heater around the recovery tank and just let it go for a day and a half or so until it all went in. It takes time of course, but the assurance was that the gas was clean and oil free, plus I always had other jobs to work on, so it wasn't like I babysat the operation.

So anyway, his argument goes that a recovery company should be able to come in, pull the gas, clean it, get the air out and put it back in the machine for me without me ever touching it. All in 8 hours and for the same price my friend is charging. The machine charge is 900 lb. and his price is $1500. Are there companies out there that drag exotic distillation equipment onsite and can do that in 8 hours for that price? Like I said, I've only dealt with my buddy and he always did me right and I want to continue giving him business.

How do you guys do it?

klove
08-15-2009, 08:48 PM
Settle all doubt and call Airgas (CFC Refimax), Refron, or Hudson Technologies, and get a price on doing the cleanup. I think your chief will find that his perception is just that - a perception. Uncontaminated refgt is one thing, but cleanup on contaminated stuff can get rather pricey, all because of one question - how much ????????????? is in the refgt.

Why don't y'all spring for the price of a recovery machine and some drums and filter shells, and do it yourself on small amounts of recovered refgt? Reftec makes some good large tonnage recovery eqpt.

ChillerWisperer
08-15-2009, 09:09 PM
Settle all doubt and call Airgas (CFC Refimax), Refron, or Hudson Technologies, and get a price on doing the cleanup. I think your chief will find that his perception is just that - a perception. Uncontaminated refgt is one thing, but cleanup on contaminated stuff can get rather pricey, all because of one question - how much ????????????? is in the refgt.

Why don't y'all spring for the price of a recovery machine and some drums and filter shells, and do it yourself on small amounts of recovered refgt? Reftec makes some good large tonnage recovery eqpt.

I don't think it's really contaminated. The machine is full of air, so there may be some moisture. My bigger concern is oil. I wanted to just repair the leak (rupture disk) and start the machine and use the purge to get the air out. It was his idea to pull the gas and clean it. It's a new account we're trying to get, so I wanted to keep the cost down as much as possible before we start getting them to drop some money on plant upgrades. The chiller division of my company is still in it's fledgling state. I am going to have to get quite a few more accounts before I can convince them to start buying the specialized tools I need. Right now, I'm pushing for a portable boiler to leak check machines and getting some flak about it. I'm giving them a year to see if they are really onboard and serious about the chiller business, or just another HVAC contractor playing chiller contractor.

Oops, did I just say that?:p

Sorry, I have no inner monologue.

heavymetaldad
08-15-2009, 09:27 PM
hudson will cost more than you doing it yourself, especialy if you can keep busy elsewere. as far as a portable pressurizer or pressurepak, build your own. we made a couple, it's really no big deal. and while you're distilling a charge, build yourself a dehydrator. :D

ChillerWisperer
08-15-2009, 09:43 PM
hudson will cost more than you doing it yourself, especialy if you can keep busy elsewere. as far as a portable pressurizer or pressurepak, build your own. we made a couple, it's really no big deal. and while you're distilling a charge, build yourself a dehydrator. :D

I was thinking about building my own pressurizer using a spa heater with a Taco or Grundfoss pump. Do you have a parts list for the one you built?

Here's something similar to the heater I was going to use:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Raypak-11-KW-Electric-Spa-Hot-Tub-Heater_W0QQitemZ160353187635QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_ DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2555cb7733&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

jayguy
08-15-2009, 10:38 PM
any more, i run the refrigerant through a 2 core drier IN AND OUT of the tanks. if you are just doing it for the sake of leak repairs, i would imagine that this is good enough. if it really is a major contamination then of course you want a specialty company.

as far as recharging the unit....why pay someone else to do it? you are already there...you are sweeping the floors, getting your personal tools/equipment out, finishing paperwork, etc. It seems that you are on top of your time and making every minute count...sounds like the boss is just not very comfortable with big iron yet or the tools and equipment required.

good luck.

mustardman
08-15-2009, 11:00 PM
any more, i run the refrigerant through a 2 core drier IN AND OUT of the tanks. if you are just doing it for the sake of leak repairs, i would imagine that this is good enough. if it really is a major contamination then of course you want a specialty company.

as far as recharging the unit....why pay someone else to do it? you are already there...you are sweeping the floors, getting your personal tools/equipment out, finishing paperwork, etc. It seems that you are on top of your time and making every minute count...sounds like the boss is just not very comfortable with big iron yet or the tools and equipment required.

good luck.

Sorry Jay for one of the first times I disagree if its a major contamination sell em a new charge and have the old one destroyed. You can spend all weekend distilling a charge or reclaiming it. Note I didn't say recovering







As to the company that chiller whisperer uses that can recover 900 lbs and recharge in 8 hours I call major BS

ChillerWisperer
08-15-2009, 11:11 PM
As to the company that chiller whisperer uses that can recover 900 lbs and recharge in 8 hours I call major BS

Actually, the guy that I want to use will take 8 hours to pull the charge and have the machine down to 29". Then I would go in the next morning, break with nitrogen and do the repair and start distilling by noon. Finish up the distillation by early afternoon on the third day and start the machine.

jayguy
08-15-2009, 11:15 PM
Sorry Jay for one of the first times I disagree if its a major contamination sell em a new charge and have the old one destroyed. You can spend all weekend distilling a charge or reclaiming it. Note I didn't say recovering







As to the company that chiller whisperer uses that can recover 900 lbs and recharge in 8 hours I call major BS

yeah....but i still agree with you! :D

we did use a company to distill and clean up a broken tube chiller once....ONCE! i agree, if it is major then you should replace. i have distilled charges if it was just an oil thingy. if i know ahead of time, i start distilling after i recover and after a couple of days (sometimes...i distill real slow:rolleyes:) it is ready to go.

klove
08-16-2009, 12:01 AM
Actually, the guy that I want to use will take 8 hours to pull the charge and have the machine down to 29". Then I would go in the next morning, break with nitrogen and do the repair and start distilling by noon. Finish up the distillation by early afternoon on the third day and start the machine.

Tell your boss he'd be money ahead to take that $1500 and put it toward eqpt to support this line of work he's committed to performing. Suck it up and sink the necessary funding in now, and let it pay for itself in the future. Simple fact is, heavy metal ain't cheap, but it pays good returns if he can get past arguing with himself over the expenditure.

And I do what all of these posts combined are saying. Good refgt, no big deal (might filter anyway, just out of general principle). Marginal moisture/acid, out and in thru RCW or HH cores (sidestream operational cleanup kits, too). Particulate, molded core and Pall wound yarn filter in a modified drier shell out/in (possibly distilled, depending on amount of particulate and how small). Oil, distilled during recharge. Badly contaminated with anything, call the refgt recovery company and swap charges with them, or have them do it on site.


Jay: Not to knock your team or nothin', but I like your other pictures better................

heavymetaldad
08-16-2009, 12:02 PM
I was thinking about building my own pressurizer using a spa heater with a Taco or Grundfoss pump. Do you have a parts list for the one you built?

Here's something similar to the heater I was going to use:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Raypak-11-KW-Electric-Spa-Hot-Tub-Heater_W0QQitemZ160353187635QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_ DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2555cb7733&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

it's off on another job at the far end of town. it was a 480 water heater, with a small 120 pump and control circuit, all mounted on a 2 wheeler. needs a 480v, 30a 3phase and 120v,15a single circuits. when it comes back, i'll make a list and snap a coupla pics.
i do have a cold trap at my job site. that i can make a material list and provide pics

txhvac
08-16-2009, 01:38 PM
The hot box we use is made from a 208 V cir pump, 45A elements, 3 stage, 1 phase. Can be difficult wiring into a panel, not to bad heats pretty good, a little slow on R-123.

jayguy
08-16-2009, 03:30 PM
...Jay: Not to knock your team or nothin', but I like your other pictures better................

:D:D:D:D:D:D



SIX-BURGH!!

Randy S.
08-16-2009, 05:45 PM
I like to add a drier to the liquid return from the purge, if possible.

ChillerWisperer
08-16-2009, 09:47 PM
it's off on another job at the far end of town. it was a 480 water heater, with a small 120 pump and control circuit, all mounted on a 2 wheeler. needs a 480v, 30a 3phase and 120v,15a single circuits. when it comes back, i'll make a list and snap a coupla pics.
i do have a cold trap at my job site. that i can make a material list and provide pics

I used a Prevac portable at Trane. Nice unit, except you could only use it on 480 unless you changed out the transformer and PC board and we had a few machines that were 208, with no 480 close by. I'd like to set one up for dual voltage for those times I come across another 208 machine. Maybe use a multitap transformer with an access panel to change the voltage and learn to live with the lower heat output when necessary. I'd like to know who supplies the hotbox for Prevac.

NWMech
08-16-2009, 10:10 PM
I used a Prevac portable at Trane. Nice unit, except you could only use it on 480 unless you changed out the transformer and PC board and we had a few machines that were 208, with no 480 close by. I'd like to set one up for dual voltage for those times I come across another 208 machine. Maybe use a multitap transformer with an access panel to change the voltage and learn to live with the lower heat output when necessary. I'd like to know who supplies the hotbox for Prevac.

I've used the pressurizer from reftec and it is great because the heater can be wired up to 230 or 480. It's a little spendy buy is well worth it if you were not going to build one and just spend the money. The pump is 115 so as long as there's 230 or 480 avail for the heater you're set.


http://www.reftec.com/shop/category.aspx?catid=4

ChillerWisperer
08-17-2009, 09:41 AM
I've used the pressurizer from reftec and it is great because the heater can be wired up to 230 or 480. It's a little spendy buy is well worth it if you were not going to build one and just spend the money. The pump is 115 so as long as there's 230 or 480 avail for the heater you're set.


http://www.reftec.com/shop/category.aspx?catid=4

That is a nice little unit. And Reftec is right down the road from here...I've been to their new place at Lakewood Ranch and it's a clean setup. I'll check into it. Thanks.

ChillerWisperer
08-18-2009, 08:33 PM
I'm pushing for a portable boiler to leak check machines and getting some flak about it.

First job I get sent on to leak check a chiller, I ask my boss: "so where's the boiler" He says the customer has one onsite that I can use. When I get there, this is what I found:

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk210/diversolo/IMG_1583_1.jpg

Healey Nut
08-18-2009, 08:58 PM
So when the "home made" boilers explode and you or someone else gets hurt or worse and the appropriate authorities investigate and find that the "home made" boiler has no ESA or CSA approval stickers on it . WHO'S A$% is on the line ????????????????????????????????????????????????
JMHO........

klove
08-18-2009, 09:48 PM
First job I get sent on to leak check a chiller, I ask my boss: "so where's the boiler" He says the customer has one onsite that I can use. When I get there, this is what I found:

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk210/diversolo/IMG_1583_1.jpg

Sometimes there's a great chasm between knowing and understanding. :o

double bogey
08-18-2009, 11:42 PM
www.hotwaterheater.com

ChillerWisperer
08-22-2009, 10:25 AM
Double bogey, thanks for the link.

Don't worry, I didn't actually use it. The customer had it hooked up when I got there, but I disconnected it and found a hot water source close by that I could use (boiler room was next door).

Some Dude
08-22-2009, 11:34 AM
When i was a second year apprentice i tried to vacum up some with a shop vac,great learning experience.whistle1

double bogey
08-22-2009, 11:51 PM
I have used the heaters lots. They don't have any fusing so it is kind of spooky. But you can't beat a boiler. You gotta make sure you don't go too fast. Once heated a CVHE500 with R-11 to 8 lbs in 2 minutes. Scared me I thought it would get the rupture disc before I got it shut down. The stress coulbn't have been good for it. We converted it later, that was 15 years ago, I think it is still running.