HP airhandler installed in reverse

[penguin]

Guy's, I just got off the job from hell, I just about lost it when I finally figured out the indoor A coil was installed on top of a air handler on a up flow system. I was called out on a eight year old installation that wasn't cooling, real nice sheet metal job I must say. This house had two systems installed, a 2 ton and a 3 ton. Well it was cool out so I charged it in the heat mode, all went fine. I put my gauges on the other machine and the high side pegged my gauge near 500 psi. I scratch my head and say you have major problems on this other unit. I put may gauges back on the one I just charged and it's now pegging my high side gauge. What the yuck is going on here, I look at the house owner and say,"I feel like I'm in the twilight zone". After a mind boggling hour It finally dawns on me the eight year old install is installed backwards. Both units are scroll compressors, each of them stopped runnning and over heated during the time I was on the job. So the question is what should the home owner do, the installing contractor is still in business. Now don't forget these unit have somehow servived 8 years of overheating in the winter. Every time the strips came on the compressors over heated. The piping has been punished with 500 PSI over and over again. Now on to the electric bills for eigth years, everytime the compressors overheated they could only heat with strips till the compressor cooled off. To say the least being a air conditioning contactor I was quite pissed off to see this. How should this home owner be compensated by the installing contractor.

[rdjr64]

Sounds to me like the homeowner was trying to save money converting a straight electric a\h and straight cooling condenser to heat pump without replacing the entire system. May not be previous contractors fault. I have seen a horizontal in the attic with a coil attached to the return and a h\p condeser, it works fine. Your in a situation that either you refer them back to the original contractor or explain why this is incorrect. Like I said, maybe the ho was trying to save a few bucks and now they have to pay.

[jerbear]

If indeed the original contractor is at fault that is a major sin.
Is the original contractor your competition?
Do you know them enough to give them a heads up on this.
I would think that if they are worth their salt that they would be very interested in taking care of this ASAP.
New units and an apology would probably get them off cheap.
Go to bat for the homeowner but be sure that the installing contractor has a discussion with you as to what you found.
After you tell them how it really operated all these years
and that you explained that to the homeowner, you are basically guiding them in the direction of replacement of equipment rather than fixing it.

[penguin]

rdjr64
The owners of this house are retired, there is now way this couple could have installed this. Actually the install is awsome when it comes to duct work, but someone dropped the ball on this part of the job.
Jerbear,
I don't compeat with this company, I have never met them, but I have fixed alot of there screw ups.
Dam I hate being in the middle like this, this company is known for not taking care of there mistakes. This isn't the first time I have ran across this. Others home owners have compalined that they were very rude to them and didn't respond to there calls once they knew they had problems.
The owners of the house where this is going down stated to me they are on a retirement budget. The sad part is that they asked me If they could still run the machines.

[dash]

Why not disconnect the strip heat,for now,then it's cooling season ,so the have plenty of time to deal with the install company,authorities,TV staion,etc., if needed.

Best advice for them,send a certified letter,wait 10days ,and go to authorities,etc..

They could except,fix it ,and warranty P&L,the compressors,for X (5?)number of years,instead of replace.

[penguin]

DASH
Thats exactly what I have in mind to do with the strips. But on the other hand this contractor may say something like the strips were disconnected for eigth years and there was no damage. This is hicks ville bro, Things around here are settled with shot guns, not a court of law. Why me, this is the second time I have been cought in the middle.

[dash]

Why not "arm" the customer with the mfr. specs.,in regard to this,and step back from the shotgun.

Or just give them the 800# for the Mfr.

[JohnB]

Move the coils or if the moneys not there install a fosil fuel kit to protect what's there and put it in a letter to the owners.
It's there problem and decision not yours.

[flange]

im assuming you mean the electric heat was installed below the coil, as the coil being installed on top of the fan isnt necessarily a sin. there are "draw thru" and "blow thru " units. sounds like the correct diagnosis was that it was originally straight electric, and a "friend" helped them by installing a heat pump for more efficiency. id document what ive found and offer to fix it correctly or else walk away.

[penguin]

Here is what the Lennox job looks like, These are upflow air handlers with strips and a big mistake. Oh, look at the installation instruction attached to the return air duct on the left of the pic.
http://www.hvacloads.com/talkpics/wall/111372_2yokum.jpg

[Edited by Boss on 12-29-2003 at 10:39 AM]

[penguin]

BOSS, you can move these to the hall of shame. I wanted to show you guys how good a job they did on the duct work. It's a crying shame someone couldn't read the instructions.
http://hvacloads.com/talkpics/wall/111373_1yokum.jpg

[Edited by Boss on 12-29-2003 at 10:42 AM]

[HVAC Pro]

Coils and blower sections look about the same age. Wonder why they didn't just install standard upflow air handlers?

[penguin]

HVAC Pro
The home owner filled me in on what happened when this house was built in 1995. The builder was going to put in a propane backup for the heat pumps. The owners said they wanted all electic at the house. So It appears that the A/C installers yanked the propane units and without thinking they installed the air handlers under the A coils. I must say I staired at these 2 unit for a hour before my light bulb got turned on. I have never seen anyone leave a job like this before and I was dumb founded when I finally realized the problem. Hey, don't forget these unit are 8 years old and no one caught this either. I've owned my own business for 17 years now and this is the first time I've ran across this. I'm not sure how a propane backup works in the defrost mod. I've never seen a split heatpump with a back up of propane installed.
HVAC Pro, If you can fill me in on what and how a up flow heat pump with propane back up works I would appeciated that.

[BaldLoonie]

One return drop for both furnaces? Is it big enough?

[markwolf]

Call the owner up from the company if he knows that another contractor know what is up maybe he will do the old folks right.Let us know what he says.

[Steve Wiggins]

I would show the customer where it says in the install instructions that this is a backwards install, then let them pursue the case.

On the invoice I would write, "In my opinion" this system would benefit if the the blower and coils section were reversed. Also due to outdoor compressors suffering high pressure I recommend (optionally) the outdoor units be replaced as well. Price to correct the problem $xx.xx

It will drain with the coils on bottom I assume?


P.S. Lennox used to install heat pumps in this way yrs. ago. They had high limits installed in the ductwork just above the equipment. They also had the controls rigged so the heat strips and outdoor unit wouldn't run at the same time. It can be done.

[penguin]

I called the contractor and explained the problem. The owner has also talked to the contractor. I hope the contractor does something, I really dought the contractor will from past experiences.

Here is a copy of the letter that the home owner is sending to the contractor

I called out Aarons Air conditioning and Heating LLC to see why my up stairs heat pump system wasn’t working. Aarons looked over the system and noticed head pressures as high as 500 PSI on both systems. Aarons also stated that the compressors did fail to run when the condensers head pressure reached these high head pressures. Aarons inspected the indoor air handlers and noticed that the evaporators were installed on the air discharge end of the air handlers. Aarons stated that these 2 air handlers unit were causing the high head pressure since the strips were heating the air before the evaporators. Aarons also stated that these extreme continued high pressures have had detrimental effects to the systems involved.
After learning about my problems that you have caused, I am asking you to replace all machines (condensers, evaporators, air handlers and piping at your expense. I also have an issue with my electric bills for the last 8 years since these heat pump units have not been installed per manufactures requirements.
Please understand that I will hire an attorney and take this to court for full compensation if we do not resolve this in a timely manor.

[penguin]

BaldLoonie
If you look closely at the right machines return air box that there is a rectangular duct that attaches to its right side. That tall thin rectangular duct runs along the wall for some 15 feet or so into a return air grille for the down stairs unit. You can see it in the first picture if you look at the blue ice chest.

[BaldLoonie]

Zooming the old eyes in very carefully I can see it. The ladder is sitting on it.

[HVAC Pro]

penguin, Lennox uses the FM21 dual fuel control which will interface the furnace and heat pump outdoor unit. The dual fuel control will shut off the furnace during heat pump operation and vice versa. There are a variety of ways of accomplishing the same thing, however. Rheem uses an outdoor thermostat and plenum temperature switch. Switches over to back up below the balance point setting.

[markwolf]

Originally posted by HVAC Pro
penguin, Lennox uses the FM21 dual fuel control which will interface the furnace and heat pump outdoor unit. The dual fuel control will shut off the furnace during heat pump operation and vice versa. There are a variety of ways of accomplishing the same thing, however. Rheem uses an outdoor thermostat and plenum temperature switch. Switches over to back up below the balance point setting. A fuel master is in a pretty good sized box I don't think he would have missed all the control wires going into one.

[penguin]

HVAC Pro, thanks for your input. I figured one or the other would be running. I guess my main concern was how does a fosil fuel heat pump combo temper the air in defrost.

[JohnB]

Originally posted by penguin
HVAC Pro, thanks for your input. I figured one or the other would be running. I guess my main concern was how does a fosil fuel heat pump combo temper the air in defrost.
With a duct stat.

[cliebold]

I also saw this last week on a horizontal application fan coil in the attic. Seems the company that installed it was not thinking. They did the correct thing and recommended an indoor coil but put downstream of the aux heaters.....They had a heat pump fan coil, removed the coil from the fan coil housing and then installed a horizontal furnace coil downstream of the existing F/C which had aux. electric heaters. The home owner was none the wiser and couldn't understand why was pointing it out to him....Must have made some impression because he called me back a couple of days later and gave me the job.

[technical tom]

Is there one main difusser(the return), acting as the supply, and the other( normally the supplies) acting as returns in every room?