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lafam1
01-28-2016, 02:39 PM
Hey guys,
I'm am working on an old craig dipping cabinet and trying to get information. There is no tags of any sort anywhere on the unit. I know
Craig is out and he has a ton of it in his diner. I did take a pick of the TX valve and the EPR.664761664771
The compressor is a Copeland ARE373C-IAA-901 Serial 07f00163E. So it was made in July of 07. Most of the models I find have an E after the C. I cannot get specific information on this. I know there is an r-12 tx valve on it. I dont want to do anything till I know for sure. Since I started doing work for this guy I have seen a lot of strange stuff. Wrong condenser sizing, No safety controls. I just want to make sure its the right compressor for the unit. Somewhere I thought I saw it was a high temp Compressor. Could that be used on this unit?

Any input would help.
Thanks
Lafam1

maka
01-28-2016, 08:24 PM
From Emerson site, Looks to be a 1/3 HP R12 compressor, not sure application range though

icemeister
01-28-2016, 10:50 PM
The ARE37C3 was a high temp 1/3 HP R12 compressor and was rated down to 0F SST. Not a proper selection for a dipping cabinet but it'll probably work OK if it's replacing a small 1/4 HP low temp compressor.

The model number without the "E" was for R12 and came with mineral oil and are no longer available form Copeland. The "E" designates POE oil.

pecmsg
01-30-2016, 09:04 AM
The regulating valve, was that hooked up to the soda tank? If so remove it.

joejax
02-03-2016, 08:19 PM
IIRC dipping cabinets run a higher temp than an ice cream freezer. Usually above zero upwards of 10 to degrees, if I remember correctly.

The idea is to keep the product soft enough to be able to dip it.

lafam1
02-08-2016, 01:30 PM
Thanks guys,
I replaced the r-12 tx with a 134a one. I still cant get it past 18 degrees. I have spent way too much time on this. It was 26 so its a little better. He does not want to go for a new compressor so its going to have to stay that way. No that EPR valve goes to the evap coil.
I think my biggest problem was I could not get the suc line down below 10psi. I would have like to see it at 0-5 degrees. If that is a 1/3 hp comp then the guy should have given me a 1/4 hp tx not a 1/2 hp which he daid I could adjust down. Well I did almost all the way and still not where I want to see it.
By the way the owner wants it at 0. Not me. I think 10 is a good number but it looks like he is storing in it also.

Thanks for the replies
Lafam1

pecmsg
02-08-2016, 02:13 PM
Thanks guys,
I replaced the r-12 tx with a 134a one. I still cant get it past 18 degrees. I have spent way too much time on this. It was 26 so its a little better. He does not want to go for a new compressor so its going to have to stay that way. No that EPR valve goes to the evap coil.
I think my biggest problem was I could not get the suc line down below 10psi. I would have like to see it at 0-5 degrees. If that is a 1/3 hp comp then the guy should have given me a 1/4 hp tx not a 1/2 hp which he daid I could adjust down. Well I did almost all the way and still not where I want to see it.
By the way the owner wants it at 0. Not me. I think 10 is a good number but it looks like he is storing in it also.

Thanks for the replies
Lafam1
Why do they have a EPR on the evap? and what is it set for?
1/2 -Ton valve is good.
How did you adjust it? Whats the SH at the evap and at the pump?

What refrigerant is in there?

lafam1
02-08-2016, 02:35 PM
I would imagine they have it on there to control the temp since there is nothing else. I have it wide open. (counterclockwise) I noticed when turning it clockwise my suc pressure went up. Also you can see from the pic on the knob its says colder with an arrow counterclockwise. I adjusted the tx inward closing the valve to try to achieve a lower suc pressure. I still had major frost all the way back to the compressor. I cannot recall what the sh was. That was about 2 weeks ago and I have not gone back. I know I will. He always is calling me. Then I will check again. I do know my high was 140 and low 10 which I thought was good on 134a.

Nick

VTP99
02-08-2016, 02:40 PM
Looking at icemeister's post #3, that compressor is only rated down to 0*SST. With a 10* TD at best you will get +10* case temperature. Sounds like your customer wants something he can't get without spending some more money. Like joejax stated, it's a dipping case and typically would run at +5*-+10*. Why did you replace the TXV ?

VTP99
02-08-2016, 02:45 PM
[QUOTE=lafam1;22217751I adjusted the tx inward closing the valve to try to achieve a lower suc pressure.[/QUOTE]

Adjusting the valve in will raise your super heat and starve the coil more.

icemeister
02-08-2016, 02:48 PM
The ARE37C3 was rated at 1100 Btuh at -10F SST / 130F SCT with R12 which should be sufficient capacity for a small dipping cabinet of 4 holes or less. Copeland doesn't rate the ARE37C3E at LT with R134A but the AFE10C3E is rated at low temp 1/4 HP of the same displacement (.74 cu in) and has a capacity on R134A of 935 Btuh. Either way I would expect it should do the job.

The expansion valve should be 1/8 ton. The 1/2 ton valve is probably overfeeding. You cannot throttle down the capacity of the valve. You can only raise or lower its superheat setting. Are you getting any frost on the suction line coming out of the box yet? What is the frost pattern on the walls inside the box?

The EPR may have been used to stabilize the suction pressure for a more even suction pressure for consistent dipping temperatures. I usually shoot for 5F-7F product temperature.

Any idea of the type of insulation in the walls and if it's dry?

pecmsg
02-08-2016, 03:15 PM
There's several things wrong with this unit.

You adjust the SH not the pressure with the x-valve. Most low temp suction lines frost. Sometimes the compressor frosts. all the frost indicates is the copper is below freezing.
R-134A as a replacement for R-12 in low temp is another issue.

I still think a low temp 1/2 ton valve may work but I'll yield to Icemeister. :D

Change the 134A to MP-66 (R-401B)
Get the valve back to mid point.
Open the EPR valve the way, adjust it later.
Measure and adjust the SH properly. 8* at the evap 20 - 40* at the pump. The pump trumps the evap.

icemeister
02-08-2016, 03:40 PM
I would imagine they have it on there to control the temp since there is nothing else. I have it wide open. (counterclockwise) I noticed when turning it clockwise my suc pressure went up. Also you can see from the pic on the knob its says colder with an arrow counterclockwise. I adjusted the tx inward closing the valve to try to achieve a lower suc pressure. I still had major frost all the way back to the compressor. I cannot recall what the sh was. That was about 2 weeks ago and I have not gone back. I know I will. He always is calling me. Then I will check again. I do know my high was 140 and low 10 which I thought was good on 134a.

Nick

Because the EPR says CCW is colder, turning it all the way CCW would open it fully. I agree with that. But when you say turning it CW caused the suction pressure to go up, did you mean the evaporator pressure went up or was it the compressor suction pressure?

You say there is heavy frost all the way back to the compressor. Normally frost on the suction line doesn't mean much unless you know the superheat, but with these IC cabinets you only want to see a frost line extend just beyond where the suction exits the box. You're overfeeding and that's preventing the suction from dropping. I would expect to be close to 0 psig with this.

maka
02-09-2016, 09:54 PM
R134a is an inefficient refrigerant at low temps and needs more HP to match R12 performance, locally her i use R406a another is R409a suitable with MO and AB oil, and use the same R12 TXV .
maka

joejax
02-09-2016, 10:10 PM
Yes, R134 stinks. I think 409 smells worse, though. Nothing but trouble with that stuff, we knick-named it 'death-gas' back when it came out, killed everything we put it in, could not get good performance in lower temp applications.

I've had good luck with R414 B, aka 'hotshot'. Seems to work well at the lower temps and can be used to replace 134 in some cases. Although the cost has skyrocketed for 414, I have been experimenting replacing 134 in some reach in and make tables, with poor ambient or frequent capillary issues, with good results.

lafam1
02-10-2016, 12:24 PM
Wow thanks for the replies. That is some good information. I was there last night fixing a leak in a sandwich unit. He does not want to put anymore money in it. It was still running at 18 degrees. I did not check anything else. The inside walls were nicely covered in frost up and down. I think with that compressor that is about all I am going to get. I do not carry any of the refrigerants you suggested (only 22,134a,404a, 410a) and since he does not want to pay anymore I dont want to put out the money. I am small potatoes.

thanks
Lafam1

joejax
02-10-2016, 04:56 PM
The cost for the R12 replacements is getting ridiculous, 414 included.

pecmsg
02-10-2016, 06:45 PM
Wow thanks for the replies. That is some good information. I was there last night fixing a leak in a sandwich unit. He does not want to put anymore money in it. It was still running at 18 degrees. I did not check anything else. The inside walls were nicely covered in frost up and down. I think with that compressor that is about all I am going to get. I do not carry any of the refrigerants you suggested (only 22,134a,404a, 410a) and since he does not want to pay anymore I dont want to put out the money. I am small potatoes.

thanks
Lafam1

Take this opportunity to set yourself apart from the rest, Find what's wrong and fix it. What's the worse that happens you give away a few hours and fail? You've been given a lot of info follow thru. If you correct it your golden in his eyes!