I moved your thread to the "AOP Residential HVAC and Refrigeration (Beenthere Zone)" forum as this is the only forum where homeowners can ask non-technical HVAC/Refrigeration questions, and seek advice.

Please take note of this new location.

 

As long as the lines and existing coil will work with the new outdoor unit, there is no need to replace them. Most 5 year old coils will work with the new refrigerant, but I don’t know your situation well enough to say positive yes or no.

 

I agree with BNME8EZ that it should work, but will the manufacturer warranty the new outdoor unit when installed this way?

Here is a NOTICE in the outdoor unit (5A7A7036A1000A) Installers Guide:

Equipment Damage!
Failure to follow instructions below could result in
equipment damage.
Use only R-454B rated indoor models, service
equipment, and components with these units.

Ask the contractor how he will handle the warranty on this new condenser when the warranty specifically states:
Exclusions: The following are not covered by this limited warranty: Improper Installation.

 

Great. Thanks.

yeah with a new unit, more than likely, it will have different refrigerant than I already have.

Also if the old coil was used, wouldn’t the lines have to be either vacuumed, or replaced so there’s no cross contamination?

 

Do you really want this company back?

 

Well. I don’t trust them at all, but I don’t see an alternative either

I do want my unit fixed and it looks like it can't be fixed since it's been discontinued and the parts can't be ordered. So it needs to be replaced. Besides, I still have 5 years left of my parts and labor warranty.

Again, I wish there was an alternative.

 

The lines would have to be vacuumed whether old lines and coil are used, new are used or a combination of them.

 

Thanks. That's what I thought.

 

I don’t know, I’ve been told by that company that my model is discontinued and parts are very hard to come by if not impossible.

Now we’re talking about the base of the unit and the panels. Not talking about the motor, or anything else.

 

“Just the other day, the company sent a new tech out to replace one panel that had a scratch”

So where did they get that panel if they can’t get any parts? As mentioned thinking they can find a OEM replacement plastic base on a five year old system, heck that base may fit different models and years.

I did not know you can use a R410A metering device ( your existing coil ) on a R454B outdoor unit. Also a R454B coil has a sensor that needs to be tied into a R454B rated furnace due the slight flammability of R454B. No sensor on existing coil, not a comparable R454B rated furnace, meaning you would need to install a kit on the furnace and a sensor on the existing coil, if that’s even possible and tie everything in. At least that’s my understanding, certainly others here can straighten me out on the latest and greatest on R454B systems.

Lastly the warranty guide, says in order to get the full manufacturers warranty on the outdoor unit your suppose to install a AHRI ( Air Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration Institute ) matched system and both sections are to be installed at the same time, if not a matched system, then it will revert to five years base warranty instead of ten years outdoor unit.

https://www.trane.com/pdf/GW-OTDR-2401B.pdf

Eligibility Requirements: The following items are required for the Product(s) to be covered under this limited warranty:

•

The Product(s) must be in the same location where they were originally installed.

•

The Product(s) must be properly installed, operated, and maintained by a licensed HVAC service provider in accordance with the Product specifications or installation, operation,
and maintenance instructions provided by Company with each Product. Failure to conform to such specification and/or installation, operation, and maintenance instructions shall

void this limited warranty.

•

Company may request written documentation showing the proper preventative maintenance.

•

All Product parts replaced by Company under this limited warranty must be given to the servicing provider for return to Company.

•

Air handler, air conditioner, heat pumps, cased or uncased coils, stand-alone furnaces, and packaged units must be part of an Air Conditioning, Heating, and Refrigeration Institute

rated and matched system or a specification in a Company provided bulletin or otherwise approved in writing by a Company authorized representative.

NOTICE UNDER AIR HANDLER, AIR CONDITIONING, HEAT PUMPS CASED COIL ETC. IT SAYS “MUST” BE PART OF AHRI RATED AND MATCHED SYSTEM, thou it gives two specifications

•

All claims under this limited warranty must be filed within 90 days of failure date.

 

“Just the other day, the company sent a new tech out to replace one panel that had a scratch”

So where did they get that panel if they can’t get any parts? As mentioned thinking they can find a OEM replacement plastic base on a five year old system, heck that base may fit different models and years.

I did not know you can use a R410A metering device ( your existing coil ) on a R454B outdoor unit. Also a R454B has a sensor that needs to be tied into a R454B rated furnace due the slight flammability of R454B. No sensor on existing coil, not a comparable furnace, meaning you would need to install a kit on the furnace and a sensor on the existing coil, if that’s even possible and tie everything in. At least that’s my understanding, certainly others here can straighten me out on the latest and greatest on R454B systems.

Lastly the warranty guide, says in order to get the full manufacturers warranty on the outdoor unit your suppose to install a AHRI ( Air Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration Institute ) matched system and both sections are to be installed at the same time, if not a matched system,b then it will revert to five years instead of ten years outdoor unit.

https://www.trane.com/pdf/GW-OTDR-2401B.pdf

Yeah, they ordered the new panel, which is only one piece of the panel a few months ago, and it finally came in. I tried telling them that the base was damaged, and the other panels were probably damaged as well.

Like I said, I don’t trust this company so I don’t believe anything to really saying but why would they say they can’t get the parts and they’re gonna have to put a new unit in. I don’t know which is more expensive.

And unfortunately, I do not know enough about what needs to be changed out on the furnace, like you say, etc. I just know that you have to have a furnace, that matches up with your air conditioner to a certain point. And I do know that your coil and your condenser must be matching or compatible.

Also, this company is one of those do it all companies. Plumbing, heating, electrical, etc.

The company that I originally purchased all this from was just a heating and air conditioning company.

 

It is a bad situation, i actually understand the frustration the tech had with that model unit, and the method trane used to secure the panels.
I certainly do not understand any tech that deals with the public behaving that way...

Says something about the mentality of the individual.

Mixing and matching would get you a functional unit, but it is not legal to do so.

Most manufacturers when they warranty an outdoor unit that needs a different indoor unit, they put the ahri matching requirements on the owner, and do not pay or provide matching parts.

If it were my employee that behaved that way, i would dock their pay for the cost of the damages incurred, file an insurance claim and get it all replaced.
I would sell you a prorated extended warranty, if you wanted to keep the remainder of your parts and labor warranty, but i would not require it. I would honor the remainder of the warranty on the new equipment, but would not extend it for a new 10 years unless you agreed to the new warranty cost.

I hope the company deals fairly with you on this situation, and i hope that tech gets enrolled in anger management.

 

I still don’t get it, they send a Tech. out to do a basic PM, the only panel that needs to be removed is the electrical panel which typically has couple 5/16” hex heads screws and is mounted directly above the lineset access valves. Was the Tech. planning on cleaning the coil also?, should have just removed the top fan section, and sprayed from the inside outwards. Those Spine Fin coils ( GE designed and patented that design decades ago ) typically do not get plugged as bad as typical fin and tube coils, then spray downward between the coil and sheetmetal skin IMO, oh well,… the damage is done.

Let us know how you make out…..thinking at this point the right thing to do is put in a R454B outdoor unit with a matching R454B cased coil with a kit to tie the coil sensor into the non rated R454B furnace at their expense? Or possibly find a leftover somewhat equivalent NOS R410A outdoor unit that matches the cased coil if one can be found in the USA, chances you would get five years warranty, which is what you have now…..or…

 

originally, when the tech came out, he came out to do a season start up, and clean my air conditioner prior to the season. He started to try to remove the panels and couldn’t get the panels off. He was kicking the panels, bending them and kicking the base. Using the screwdriver also scratched one of the panels up.

Yes what I hoping for is they put in the new condenser, with a matching coil, and the kit to tie the coil sensor into the non-rated R454B furnace.

Hopefully this doesn’t take a super long time and we can get this resolved sometime soon.

Thanks for the help.

 

I have dealt with Trane for decades and the design of that style has been around at least 10, probably 15 years. Once you know how they come apart it’s simple unless it is in a dusty environment and the seams are full of dirt.
I have a hard time believing the tech kicked the base pan hard enough to break it. Those things are tough.
Just a guess here but I wonder if the push back on parts is the time it would take to dismantle, reassemble, vac pump and charge will be a lot longer than swapping units.

 

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Need help? Call Us:1-954-505-9867
American Standard 4A7A7036A1000 - Gold Series, 3 Ton, 17 SEER, R410a Air Conditioner, 208-230V, 1 Phase

This Product Qualifies For FREE US Shipping
Item #: 6735
Brand: American Standard
Availability: In stock ships within 24 to 48 hours
Condition: Brand New

 

UPDATE : Maybe

The company told me there going to put in this brand new unit.

Model - 5A7A7036A1000A 3T AC R454

They claim it's the same A/C with the new R454B refrigerant

So being that it's the same a/c as they call it, (it is a American standard gold 17 like I currently have.) will my current coil work with this unit, and just like mentioned above I'm sure it'll still need the kit to tie the coil sensor into the non-rated R454B furnace.

Thanks

 

No the TXV is different

 

What part don’t you understand, the metering device in your existing coil is R410A rated, also there is no sensor on your existing coil as it’s a R410A rated cased coil.

To prove it’s a non matching Frankenstein system they are proposing, tell the Contractor to supply the AHRI number to prove the R454B outdoor unit is a AHRI match to your coil, and even better still matched to the coil and furnace, doubt he can produce a number..

Just checked AHRI web-site and entered that outdoor unit model number and your existing indoor coil model number in the A/C site, and no matches.

4TXCB004DS3HCA hooked to 5A7A7036A1000A

What is the brand and model number of the furnace?

You going to let these clowns install a non matching ( with a non matching TXV metering device ) Frankenstein system, with no coil sensor tie in without a mitigation board?

Your better off having your crack Contractor purchasing and registering the NOS unit that second opinion gave you as a lead in post # 19…

 

Good advice has been given as to mismatching the equipment.

Lets look at the big picture, are the dents and scratches really affecting the operation of the unit ?

Seems, the prudent thing would be to try and and make an agreement to a monetary compensation for the damage, and everyone move along ...

 

Good advice has been given as to mismatching the equipment.

Lets look at the big picture, are the dents and scratches really affecting the operation of the unit ?

Seems, the prudent thing would be to try and and make an agreement to a monetary compensation for the damage, and everyone move along ...

This was my exact thought as soon as I read through the initial post.

My imagination jumps back to my old beater truck that a kid backed into and dented the rear quarter panel, got a check from his insurance company and we called it good. Obviously, never fixed the truck. So, I guess the question still remains, if the AC unit is still operating fine, but has some outer damage, bangs, and dents, why go through so much trouble and time? Take a check and move on. That unit you have will still out live any of this newer crap that our industry is being forced to install today, just like my old beater truck, built to last, no fancy electronics, can easily work on it, and aftermarket parts readily available and cheap.

If the unit was destroyed, leaked out all the refrigerant and you are sweating it out in the house then I can definitely understand this crusade.

 

Just got another update from the company. Besides installing the new 5A7A7036A1000A 3T AC R454, they are going to install the matching coil. I asked him if they were gonna vacuum the existing lines or just install new lines to avoid cross-contamination and he told me they'd take care of the lines. I don’t know what they mean by that also, I mentioned the kit to tie the coil to the furnace, and he told me this will be a complete new install.

I'm going to ask him for the numbers AHRI numbers on the coil and condenser to insure there good to go.

 

They will take care of the lines, means IMO, they will blow some nitrogen through the lineset once the existing coil and existing outdoor unit is removed. It’s all about $$$, you never mentioned where your lineset runs, as an example through a outside wall or a straight shot in a basement joist, as they may may not replace that lineset as it’s easy.

I would get the mitigation kit and what they plan on doing with the existing lineset in writing, basically a proposal or service ticket before works starts so everyone is on the same page. I would insist the mitigation kit to be installed on the furnace and tied to the coil and is listed on a contract before letting them start. I would insist to know what model number and brand of coil and the AHRI number is also. Your system being a high efficiency outdoor unit, and your using a older non matching furnace, chances at best your only going to match the new coil to the new outdoor unit, and your efficiency drops a good bit, but at this point that’s the least of your worries….

Here is Goodman version, they call their board DragonFly, probably a registered trademark name, in the video shows a R32/R454B outdoor unit and a R454B cased coil hooking up to a older furnace ( non R454B or Goodman R32 refrigerant rated furnace ) such as yours that is not rated for the new refrigerant.

IMO, they are going to rely on you not knowing that the kit ( Board needs to be added ) and thinking they are going to pretend to hook it up, so you need to show them this video or tell them that you want to see the board hooked to the coil sensor and to the furnace existing board ( PCB = Primary Control Board, which the person mentioned ) and have them show you a simulated test of a refrigerant leak to which the blower stays running and system shuts down.

Remember they are loosing money on this job as they are eating a new unit and labor to install and anything else, I’d be surprised that they are going to do the right thing and install it correctly for safety reasons, but hey, they may,….time will tell.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=AwrFQKJ0EM9oF90Fq.z7w8QF;_ylu=c2VjA3NyBHNsawN2aWQEZ3BvcwM2?p=mitigation+board+goodman&vid=4ba995160a3e6c52a4ecea1129da6594&turl=https%3A%2F%2Ftse2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%2Fid%2FOVP.HjKnQj3f2BVGY9WejTCnjwEsDh%3Fpid%3DApi%26h%3D225%26w%3D300%26c%3D7%26rs%3D1&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D9ry6pJewdWg&tit=A2L+%3Cb%3EMitigation%3C%2Fb%3E+System+%26quot%3BFirst+Look%26quot%3B&c=5&sigr=1KZ3zlZPgQ0o&sigt=9vZesUfXwegn&sigi=Uap56jZHpizx&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av&h=225&w=300&l=468&age=1722957160&fr=ipad&tt=b

Do you have the brand and model number of the furnace?

“Just got another update from the company. Besides installing the new 5A7A7036A1000A 3T AC R454, they are going to install the matching coil”

Only reason they are installing supposedly a matching R454B coil, is because you called them out as being an informed HO, ( Thankx to the volunteers on this site helping you with quality questions to ask them ) as initially they where only going to replace the outdoor unit, correct?

 

What cross contamination?

 

I was always under the impression that you had to either change the lines or vacuum out the lines to avoid cross-contamination of the old refrigerant, going to the new refrigerant since they’re different types.

I’m just an average homeowner that’s what I thought.

 

Triple evacuation is SOP
Unless the line set is leaking there’s no need to change it

 

5 years ago I purchased a new HVAC system for my house. it came with a 10 year parts and labor warranty.

Recently that company was bought out by another company, but the new company put in writing that they would honor what's remaining on my 10 year part and labor warranty.

The new company sent out a tech to do an AC tuneup prior to the summer, and I have the AC tech on video kicking my unit and damaging it because the tech could not figure out how to remove the panels.

The company did not want to fix the unit so I did a BBB complaint, and they finally agreed to fix the damage.

Just the other day, the company sent a new tech out to replace one panel that had a scratch, after taking the panels off the tech noticed the base of the unit was broke in a couple spots, and almost all the panels were damaged at the bottom where they clip into the base beyond repair.

Now the company has finally said "we will replace the unit with an AC similar to what you have"

I have an American Standard Gold 17 3 ton, model 4A7A7036A1000B. The coil is 4TXCB004DS3HCA.

Again, after talking with the company, they said they are going to replace my AC with a unit similar to what I have. That's all they keep saying.

I emailed the company again and told them that since my current unit is discontinued, they should replace with the unit that replaced my discontinued one

That would be model 5A7A7036A1000A.

If they agreed to replace it with that model, shouldn’t that HVAC company also replace the coil inside the furnace, and also put new lines in because it’s a new type of refrigerant?

Thanks!
[/QUOTE

 

Trying to find the exact unit is not possible. They would have to be very fortunate Internet. They have to try to find a 410 a condensing unit. R 32. I’ve been told by some text they’ve changed out outdoor units and it works, but preferably sticking with 410 a would be best. That’s why you’re seeing a different unit. Your unit is not available in 410 a refrigerant.

 

“and I'll also get a written estimate of whats going to be done.”

What does that mean, you got to pay for a mistake on their part, as if not, you want an exact proposal/invoice detailing EXACTLY what they plan on installing and doing, an itemized list is ideal of each part and not word of mouth vague speech or estimate of what they may/may not install and do, something like blowing nitrogen through existing lineset, replacing filter drier, replacing existing outdoor unit and indoor coil with….a ( list model numbers of coil and outdoor unit ) installing mitigation board and tying into new coil sensor and existing furnace etc.etc.

If they plan on charging you for something such as refrigerant and filter drier, and tools use, like nitrogen, braze rods, torch use, vacuum pump use etc. etc., thinking expect a enormous bill, as thinking they are going to bury as much of the cost of their mistake in the bill to help cover the cost to purchase items so not to lose to much money on this job for their mistake?

Doubt your going to find a complete AHRI matched system ( indoor coil, outdoor unit to existing furnace ) but certainly indoor coil to outdoor unit, they ( AHRI web-site ) showed a 5TXC***** as a viable matching coil, says its configuration is upflow, downflow, horizontal left and horizontal right. Also list a 5PXFH , thou that looks to be a dedicated horizontal configuration.

Certainly there may be more coil combo minus a furnace….They showed over 2000 matching systems, with coil to furnace to outdoor unit, but just a handful of matches with just a coil to outdoor unit, which is what you want or are looking for……

 

“and I'll also get a written estimate of whats going to be done.”

What does that mean, you got to pay for a mistake on their part, as if not, you want an exact proposal/invoice detailing EXACTLY what they plan on installing and doing, an itemized list is ideal of each part and not word of mouth vague speech or estimate of what they may/may not install and do, something like blowing nitrogen through existing lineset, replacing filter drier, replacing existing outdoor unit and indoor coil with….a ( list model numbers of coil and outdoor unit ) installing mitigation board and tying into new coil sensor and existing furnace etc.etc.

If they plan on charging you for something such as refrigerant and filter drier, and tools use, like nitrogen, braze rods, torch use, vacuum pump use etc. etc., thinking expect a enormous bill, as thinking they are going to bury as much of the cost of their mistake in the bill to help cover the cost to purchase items so not to lose to much money on this job for their mistake?

sorry, bad wording on my part, yes proposal is what I meant to say.

This is what I'm putting into a draft so far to the manager before anything is done.

I'm going to need everything in writing before any work is done.

All this needs to be included.

1. The model number of both the condenser, and coil.
2. The AHRI numbers
3. What exactly is going to happen to the line set. Is it going to be a brand new line set or is it going to be vacuumed, as triple evacuation is the SOP.
4. The mitigation kit. The board hooked up to coil sensor and to the PCB (primary control board)

 

This is gonna be very interesting

 

My brain hurts.

 

Imagine how the contractor feels.

 

https://www.hvac-talk.com/threads/hvac-company-damaged-condenser.2287263/?post_id=26953267&nested_view=1&sortby=oldest#:~:text=the%20tech%20noticed%20the%20base%20of%20the%20unit%20was%20broke%20in%20a%20couple%20spots%2C%20and%20almost%20all%20the%20panels%20were%20damaged%20at%20the%20bottom%20where%20they%20clip%20into%20the%20base%20beyond%20repair

How does that fall under manufacturing defect?

 

Imagine how the contractor feels.

Wurd !


Back when R22 was phased out and 410a was the go to I did several units at apartment complexes. There was a flush kit that could be use to clear the lineset of old oil and refrigerant.

It seems it was R13 for the flush ?

The old days are sometimes fuzzy ....

A quickie google search says it was R11. I am sure I still have the components around here somewhere.

The kit : https://www.supplyhouse.com/DiversiTech-PF-KIT-Pro-Flush-HVAC-Solvent-Flushing-Kit