Lennox: I'd say going from 27 to 25UHV is a good deal. I've had variable speed equipment since the early 90s, wouldn't go any other way. They are notably pricier to buy than the constant torque like the 27. The heat pump is a nice unit. It has their Quantum coil, which is all aluminum. Less likely to leak.

Daikin: they are quoting you the more deluxe of the 2 14/15 SEER units they have. They have a better standard warranty where they'll replace the unit if the compressor fails in 6 years and have a 12 year parts warranty. They are one of the few where the extended labor warranty is inhouse not a 3rd party. Daikin is the largest A/C maker in the world. Residential equipment is Goodman/Amana stuff made in TX is a huge state of the art facility. Nice that USA made not Mexico or China.

 

Here's your AHRI certified reference numbers, if the Installing Contractor did not plan on installing the field installed TXV on the Daiken your SEER is 14.5 and your EER will be 12 #7998341

https://www.ahridirectory.org/Home/...ad?ReferenceId=sUzbLVC3/aFB9wkj0dGAH64lvc9/zRahLeMmARK5LgRKB1tq33pX0QCB1iAUZXgv

If you wanted to get 15 SEER and a 12.5 EER on the Daiken they would need to install the OEM TXV #7998342

https://www.ahridirectory.org/Home/...ad?ReferenceId=sUzbLVC3/aFB9wkj0dGAH64lvc9/zRahLeMmARK5LgQ3YxkvCYxlCwjn0Smf0+px

Daiken gives the Copeland® CoreSense advanced diagnostics monitors the system for trouble spots on the compressor also.

You can check here: https://www.ahridirectory.org/

Ask the Lennox Contractor to provide you the AHRI certified reference number to prove a match then check

 

Yes I just noticed this myself. I am just learning about the txv. Perhaps he forgot to put the TXv in the quote. They both gave me the AHRI numbers and it’s important here in Quebec to make sure the units are at least 15 seer, 12.5 eer, and 8.5 hspf (region IV) or 7.391 (V) in order to qualify for some grants (almost 20%).

The number for Lennox is : 202565685
Daikin 7998342

For reference I’m an engineer with a specialty in heat transfer, but not residential HVAC, hence I am learning about all these features.

It appears the Lennox cba25uhv doesn’t have a txv and is this a good thing or a bad thing?

I should mention the efficiency of the unit in my location isn’t going to make a difference in operating costs since the climate is mostly cool. A 20 seed unit vs 15 works out to about 150$ /year. But I do need to make sure it stays above those minimum amounts to qualify for the grants.

 

https://www.ahridirectory.org/Home/...ad?ReferenceId=sUzbLVC3/aFB9wkj0dGAH+QNiZQ9Mjc2dk8dJ68nRDUd+ew6Gqhmsvg6dmqtLP8W

Your 1st post says 3 ton OD unit ( EL15xp1-030 ) but the AHRI number you provided shows OD unit is 2.5 ton to a 3. Ton Air Handler. What gives?

Are you sure the AH has a piston metering device? I personally like pistons over TXV on the lower SEER units, simple troublefree...

What size KW heater they are quoting, as IMO you would want a heater element that can handle your heat loss of your residence when and if your HP fails and is down for repairs for who knows how long.

 

My apologies. The Lennox Dealer quoted a 2-ton heat pump (should be -024 in part number above) with a 2-5 ton (-030) coil.
The daikin dealer quoted everything 2.5 heat pump with a 3-3.5 ton (-030) coil.
Both maintain they are right when questioned, and both said the indoor coil should be bigger than the outside one?
This is another question I have, which size to go with. I’ve had a few quotes half said 2-ton heat pump and half said 2-5 ton.
No one will do a full energy-balance calculation (280 standard).
I am awaiting an energy audit report that was done by government in order to obtain one of the grants available. With that report I may be able to do a some simple calculations myself to get a rough idea since it will give me leakage values and a report of the expected insulation quality/effectiveness based on original build data and time.

 

If your going to go with a now Daiken 2 ton then what is the AHRI number. The Lennox you have. As the previous Daiken numbers where for a 2.5 ton which you originally posted going with.

Also going with a larger indoor coil than an outdoor unit is common and certainly a AHRI match. Reason for the Lennox my guess would be due to having a piston metering device ( as you say it has ) that would be another way to increase SEER along with being variable speed.

 

Okay this seems to make sense since both coils are 1/2 ton larger their respective heat pumps.

The Lennox dealer said using a 2-Ton heat pump would give better dehumidification since the run time would be longer, which I agree with since the old unit which was 2.5 ton, did seem to have short cycle times. I can’t really say humidity was a problem though.

He also said the winter performance will not really change, only a longer run time to heat the house, but this I disagree with since the heating capacity on the AHRI sheet is only 19,000 btu for the Lennox and 28,000 btu for the Daikin hence the Lennox system will start relying on the aux heat (15kw) sooner .

So I’m a bit unsure what the correct sizing should be. Both will work but a bit differently. I was thinking that maybe the 2-5 ton system would be better and with the variable speed fan dehumidifying could be improved by reducing air flow slightly.

Both dealers won’t even quote me the other option!

From the quality side is the Lennox worth the extra cost and forgoing the extended warranty (since it is too expensive adding nearly 20%)?

The Daikin with the extended warranty still comes out 10% less than Lennox with std warranty. If I compare both with extended warranties, we are talking about 30% more which is very significant.

The other point to mention: the Lennox dealer is a large company, the Daikin is much smaller. But I believe with the Daikin warranty I can call other companies (see post above).

 

I should add our winter temps go down to -20C (-30 is rare but possible) and summer can reach +30 C

 

For me it's a no brainer which brand i'd go with, myself, I like the best manufacturer warranty, what manufacturers put in their units such as standard features, value, than name recognition. Not to mention a extended labor warranty backed by the manufacturer not a 3rd party as one of those brands mentioned do @ 10% less cost....

What's your heat load, as 15KW gives over 51,000BTU. Typically a 15KW heater can be broken up into a 10KW and a 5KW in case you wanted to run the HP as 1st stage and bring on either the 5KW ( 17,000BTU ) or the 10KW ( 34,000 ) on 2nd stage, seems overkill what they are Proposing for a heater element. Are both Brands offered on the bid come with a 15KW heater?

What's the difference what the size of the Installing Contractors have to do with it? There's turnaround from Techs. in both large and small.

In regards to the extended labor warranties provided by both brands, as far as I know the ones that offer those warranties ( extended ) particulate in that program, so if the Installing Contractors ( if they go out of business or can't resolve your problems as an example ) you would have to find another Dealer who participates in that program, and not just any Company that carries those brands mentioned. That may be easier said than done as who wants to work on a can of worms system ( if Installing Contractor can't figure things out and the customer is not satisfied ) that the potential Contractor never installed in the 1st place, for just a labor allowance that who knows how long it will take to get paid and at a fixed rate.

 

Hi Joey,
First I want to say thanks for the replies. I know it takes time to write back and forth.

The 15kw is pretty standard for my area of Canada (quebec). It gets very cold here in the winter and it lasts quite long.

My concerns is that the Daikin dealer was also the least expensive by far with out any sort of negotiation. They are a 7 person show that has been around for 18 years, but their current registration licenses are about 9 years old meaning they probably changed company once before. I don’t know anyone that has used them. There are some negative reviews on google about a lack of service techs when equipment broke down.

The Lennox dealer, which is much larger at 40-50 people, was also the least expensive Lennox dealer but after some negotiation and back and forth. Mostly he kept lowering his price whenever I said thank you and I’ll get back to you.
I do have some positive references though from some people I know. It appears the sales rep I am working with is not the most honest or easy to work with.

I suppose I should check with Daikin head office which other dealers can honor the warranty.

Some final thoughts that also have weight in the decision:
The Lennox quote includes their m30 Tstat. Reviews online are mixed from what I can tell. It does look and feel nice and seems to have a lot of features, but lacking the ability to control my heat recovery air exchanger.

The Daikin dealer included a honeywell prestige IAQ. Apparently it can control everything including the exchanger.

 

It's your decision, you got good information to work to pick a system. It's not like buying a car, all complete ready to go. Basically it's a puzzle you put together, some Contractors do a better job than others....

 

Yes but some new info has emerged. The Daikin deal seemed to good to be true, and usually when that occurs it is. So upon further clarification, the extended labor warranty quoted was with a 3rd party (Prime Insurance) and is only for 10 years. It doesn't cover the initial diagnostic fee, hence I'm not sure its worth it any more. It doesn't require proof of maintenance so that is a plus against the other contractors that have quoted me labor warranties. I have never purchased extended warranties on anything in my life, so I don't really know what a good deal is for this kind of equipment.

All I know is that I don't want to get stuck in 10-12 years with a system that has failed and is no longer any good to repair.

so all in all the Lennox deal is only about 10% more (without labor warranty).

My focus now is really on the sizing of the unit. The Lennox dealer maintains 2-tons is enough, but the other says 2.5 tons would be better for winter operation which is more important.

 

Is Goodman/Daikin no longer offering an extended warranty of their own? With today's junky machines, all brands, sure like to see people buy it. 3rd party though scare me. Where I used to work, the owner started his own warranty company after getting stiffed by Equiguard. I pointed out to him that he probably paid out in excess of $30,000 to change out 1 brand of coils we sold for years. But that means homeowners saved a bundle and aren't pissed at the company for a failure they otherwise would have paid 4 digits to solve.

 

It appears they are not offering such a warranty. The contractor I dealt with had another warranty plan available, said it was a Daikin warranty but it is still offered by another company (assure?). It also did not cover diagnostic fees for repairs, which if you think about it is where most of the money goes during the warranty period unless you have a serious failure like a compressor or coil.

So I am still really unsure which option to choose. After some research it appears the Daikin system I got quoted is really an Amana heatpump, and a goodman coil and fan box.

How does the MBVC compare to the lennox CBA25UHV (or the older CBX25uhv)? will the CBA25uhv and m30 thermostat offer any features the others don't have?

Also how does the lennox m30 thermostat compare to the honey well prestige IAQ with wifi (this is what the Daikin contractor is proposing in the package).

Not sure why he ddin't include the Daikin comfortnet thermostat which the package? (which looks like the Honeywell IAQ? are they the same?)

I kind of like the fact that the lennox system is all lennox. not sure if that matters?

The one advantage I get with the Honeywell is that it can control my air exchanger with heat recovery box, whereas the m30 can't, and I will have to keep its controller on the wall.

clock is ticking though I have to sign before march 30th or I lose 20% govmt grant that is available in Canada since the program is ending april 1st.

2 years of extra warranty is not going to matter if one has better features.

 

Dated 2019 from Daiken web-site:


ASURE PROVIDES YEARS OF WORRY-FREE COMFORT

With a Asure Extended Service Plan**, you’ll have your choice of 6-years*, 12-years*, or even up to 99-years* (compressor only) of worry-free comfort without the unexpected cost of replacement parts or labor expenses should your Daikin brand equipment require covered service. If a covered repair is needed, an Authorized Asure Dealer will respond promptly and make repairs with quality Daikin brand parts.

Asure coverage is affordable, on average costing only pennies a day. It’s valuable coverage that protects you today and in the future, no matter how much the cost of service may increase over the life of your Daikin brand equipment. With a Asure extended service plan, your comfort is in the warranty.

A Asure Service Agreement is only available through an Authorized Asure Dealer. Visit the Dealer Locator to find a Asure Dealer near you.

**Not available in all states.

Daiken is the only manufacturer that I'm aware of that offers either the 6 year or 12 year extended labor warranty. All others offer either a 5 year or 10 year.

Daiken owns Goodman and either owns Amana or has a licensing agreement with them, so they use the Goodman ID coil, the CAUF may be painted a Daiken colour vs the Goodman colour but the part number is the same. The double astrick says the Asure extended labor warranty is not offered in all states, I would bypass the bidding Contractor who is offering the Daiken and contact Daiken direct to find out if Daiken extended warranty is offered in your state. If it does then I would approach the Contractor and ask them why they are offering a 3rd party extended warranty, if the answer is not to your satisfaction I would drop them and find someone else, or get a Amana unit, as they have a even better manufacturer warranty. Daiken along with York are the only manufacturer ( that I'm aware of ) that back their extended labor warranties, all other major manufacturers use a 3rd party.

In regards to the Daiken MBVC vs the Lennox CBA25UHV they are totally different Air Handlers, the MBVC is only a modular box ( no coil or drain ) but communicating and variable and the only accessory it can accept is a heater element, the CAUF/CAPT is attached to the MBVC to make it more of a typical Air Handler.

https://daikincomfort.com/products/heating-cooling/whole-house/air-handlers-coils/mbvc-modular

https://www.lennox.com/products/heating-cooling/air-handlers/cba25uhv

See the difference from a typical Air Handler

Get the AHRI numbers of both system to compare SEER,EER, and HSPF

Lastly you may want to ask them why they are quoting a CAUF instead of a CAPT as the CAPT has a TXV installed from the factory and gives you the required 15 SEER you need for rebates, whereas the CAUF needs a field installed OEM TXV to get the required 15 SEER. Overall price would be the same I would think, as the CAUF is cheaper but the cost and labor to install the TXV would even out? Doesn't make sense to me. My guess,...dear I say is they where not going to install the TXV plus the labor saving ( unless the quote/bid clearly says they will install the field TXV ) cost initially to fatten up their profit margin, but still give you the AHRI number ???

 

Thanks for the response. The installer did confirm that they would install the txv. Not sure why they won’t order it with it. I will double check this if I go with them.

Concerning warranty I can’t find a phone number for Daikin North America?
It is hidden on their site?

Lennox dealer was pushing the cba25uhv because I think he has a few in stock. I asked to come see it and the cba27 and he said he didn’t have a cba27 to see. Don’t like dealing with either of them. in fact dealers here in mtl all give very incomplete data when bidding. My guess is that they assume most people won’t look into the details.

My main concern are this:

Lennox system is all Lennox (air handler, heat pump, filter case, humidifier , snow guard, m30 thermostat.
The cba25uhv is not really variable speed from what I can tell?
Maybe I would be better off with cba27 ?
Reviews online about the m30 are not great. Seems like wifi isn’t great.

Daikin system is kinda of a Frankenstein system: MBvc is really a Goodman, the heat pump is really amana, the thermostat is Honeywell Iaq.
I think to really use the variable speed mvbc one would need the comfortnet stat. Also has bad reviews online!
The Iaq has good reviews but it’s also an older model (been out for a few years now).
Compared to m30 the only benefit is that it can control my fresh air exchanger.
Whereas the m30 has smart learning and wifi capabilities and a nicer panel/display.

So unsure what to do. So many variables and in the end they are both close.

I should add that other dealers that quoted similar systems were more expensive and some by very significant amounts!

 

Might add the Daiken has a Copeland compressor, (Frankenstein system ) like many other manufacturers use. Lennox owns ADP coil, and it's not unusual to see OP post questions here about that compo, which happen to be a AHRI certified match as an example...



Point being at least the Daiken has a AHRI certified match.

Chances are a basic Trane, Carrier logo thermostat as an example are actually made by Honeywell or Robertshaw or someone else. My guess their more complicated communicating systems are made by others to their specifications also.

Even thou all manufacturers make very little of their own parts and purchase from vendors and install in a HVAC system as long as the name on the OD, ID coil, furnace is the same is OK?

https://form.jotformpro.com/41175292338961

Found this, do not know how it works thou...

Contact Daiken via e-mail with your question as another option

 

Might add the Daiken has a Copeland compressor, like many other manufacturers use. Lennox owns ADP coil, and it's not unusual to see OP post questions here about that compo, which happen to be a AHRI certified match.

Bosch inverter compressor OD unit HP are designed to hook to pretty much any brand Manufacturer Air Handler or Bosch own from the post I have read here.

Point being at least the Daiken has a AHRI certified match.

Chances are a basic Trane, Carrier logo thermostat as an example are actually made by Honeywell or Robertshaw or someone else. My guess their more complicated communicating systems are made by others to their specifications also.

Even thou all manufacturers make very little of their own parts and purchase from vendors and install in a HVAC system as long as the name on the OD, ID coil, furnace is the same is OK?

https://form.jotformpro.com/41175292338961

Found this, do not know how it works thou...

Contact Daiken via e-mail with your question as another option

Not sure I follow everything mentioned here?

They both offer certified matches. See my post above. The Lennox is slightly more efficient. Since house is small and cold climate, efficiency is not a huge concern.

So your saying I shouldn’t be too concerned about the Daikin system with components?

For instance the Lennox system comes with their hc10 filter cabinet which has great reviews

 

The cba25uhv is variable speed.

The Daikin system is not mismatched. Daikin owns the whole shebang. They are all made in Daikin's Texas plant. The heat pump gets Daikin's model # and logo, I think all air handlers and coils are identical, same model #s, probably not even branded unless they slap a sticker on it.

 

Yes it is all branded Daikin I suppose. The MBVC blower module is also variable speed. I asked earlier how these two compare but was told they are not the same since the CBA25UHV comes with the coil, which of course I knew already. I meant the air handling sections. Comfortnet vs Lennox ?

I really like the Daikin price and warranty. The thermostat a Honeywell prestige Iaq has excellent reviews but I do find it looks dated when compared to all the smart Tstats available today. It does have a big plus in that it can control my passive HRV. The dealer did confirm that they will need to install the txv valve. This I don’t like too much. I believe the Lennox either comes with it already or doesn’t need it to meet the min eff.

The Lennox m30 Tstat looks cool, has way more bells and whistles but according to the reviews online it doesn’t really work all that well.

The Lennox heat pump is a bit quieter and has an all aluminum coil. Supposed to better, but who knows! It’s a brand new design. The Daikin looks like more like the old one I have now.

The Lennox system is a bit more efficient than the Daikin, but this hardly matters in my climate. It will also fit better in my space. Still not sure how the Daikin dealer plans to install the Daikin cabinets, but they assured me that they will figure out after they start and their installation team will come to measure.

Finally the sizing remains an issue. Do I take the size (2.5 ton) that improves winter performance and hence some cost savings but sacrifice the summer dehumidification? Or other way around?

So much to consider. I bet most people get 3-4 quotes and then decide in one day. For some reason it’s harder for me.

my neighbor who has a similar house but with an extra floor had a 3-ton system installed. Last summer he said it was too large as the longest cycle he obtained was 8minutes.

This makes me think that maybe the smaller system would be better. But then I have to pay more for it! Nuts.

Carrier, trane and other Lennox dealers all quoted me 2.5 ton systems, but I think they simply saw what was installed before and quoted the same.

My apologies, for dragging this one out. I will take all your last advice and run with it!

Thanks again!