Naturalism

[Hugh B]

Here is a new topic for discussion. Naturalism is the position that matter, atoms, electrons, just the physical is all that exists. The position that there is nothing else making up the universe.

Carl Sagan the atheistic scientist promoted naturalism. In the now famous television series on astronomy based upon his book by the same name he made the claim right at the beginning of the series that "the universe is all there is, all there was and all there ever will be."

Now it turns out that this position contains some serious implications. Anyone here hold to this position? I would love to have a discussion. That is, a rational one.

[Hugh B]

BTW, naturalism gets its name from nature, meaning that nature is all that there is.

[Tool-Slinger]

Originally Posted by Hugh B

Here is a new topic for discussion. Naturalism is the position that matter, atoms, electrons, just the physical is all that exists. The position that there is nothing else making up the universe.

Carl Sagan the atheistic scientist promoted naturalism. In the now famous television series on astronomy based upon his book by the same name he made the claim right at the beginning of the series that "the universe is all there is, all there was and all there ever will be."

Now it turns out that this position contains some serious implications. Anyone here hold to this position? I would love to have a discussion. That is, a rational one.

Carl Sagan is an arrogant Jacka55 if he thinks he knows "all there is, all there ever was, and all there ever will be."

And no, you cannot have a rational discussion with that kind of tripe as a basis for the topic.

[Hugh B]

Originally Posted by Tool-Slinger

Carl Sagan is an arrogant Jacka55 if he thinks he knows "all there is, all there ever was, and all there ever will be."

And no, you cannot have a rational discussion with that kind of tripe as a basis for the topic.

Be careful there ToolSlinger. Many of today's top scientists and professors of philosophy at major universities hold to this position. In addition, most who profess to believe in Darwin's evolution also hold to naturalism.

More than a few books are available on the topic and some of them were written by very famous philosophers of the past. There are some pretty compelling arguements on both sides of this issue. Perhaps someone who supports naturalism will come along to defend it. It does have a fairly strong following and can be supported in debate.

[Tool-Slinger]

Originally Posted by Hugh B

Be careful there ToolSlinger. Many of today's top scientists and professors of philosophy at major universities hold to this position. In addition, most who profess to believe in Darwin's evolution also hold to naturalism.

More than a few books are available on the topic and some of them were written by very famous philosophers of the past. There are some pretty compelling arguements on both sides of this issue. Perhaps someone who supports naturalism will come along to defend it. It does have a fairly strong following and can be supported in debate.

======he knows "all there is, all there ever was, and all there ever will be."======

That cannot be supported, I can insert God instead of carly-boy and we could butt heads forever with no proof on either side.

Also, whatever many 'top professors of philosophy' think is of little merit in my opinion. I do not need their elitist BS opinions, and do not consider them any more intelligent than the rest of the rabble. If it matters, I had a 3.8 last time I attended the big U and would happily match my IQ against any so-called-professor so I ain't buying the intellectual superiority "somebody obviously smarter than you thinks so" bull in today's marketplace.

Some things cannot be explained so easily. How about human emotion? Self-sacrifice even to the point of death? That there ain't natural.

You ever picked-up one forth your 180 pound grampa with two fingers and it felt like 2 pounds or seen a heavy oak table bounce off the floor with only hands on top? That there ain't natural.

Ever had your mom call you in the middle of the night[the only time she ever called at an inappropriate hour] worried about some dream involving a lot of choking smoke and a firery crash worried she might die or something in a car crash soon,... september,9 2001. That there ain't natural.

What about human compassion? Mercy? Live and let live theology? Charity? None of this is natural.

Trying to explain it all away by electrons and photons is about as sensible as I can explain it away by loose beans bouncing around in the heads of over-educated nutters in the 'science of philosophy department'.



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======he knows "all there is, all there ever was, and all there ever will be."======
Harry Potter

[royc]

I suppose one could put me in that category, but not sure if I completly fit in to your idea of what natural is.

Its the same when some bible thumper comes to my door, and ask's me if I believe in God, and my answer always is, which God.?

Same with naturalism, I would end up asking what most would consider natural. I find it natural that the God within us is natural, because every human being can understand the good and bad within all of us, and thats where God and Satan, resides.

And its an easy thing to proof to yourself, just look within and you will see all the good and evil there will ever be. I dont see nature do any good or evil, it is what it is.

I believe logic is the way to truth, and I'm constantly striving to find truth, and I try to use my intelect and knowledge to arive at the truth the best way I know how. I believe in questioning everything, because its the only way to eventually come to some kind of understanding of what this is all about, and to convey to others what my experience has been in these 65 years, so others may reflect about how we should interact with each other, its a matter of survival, otherwise we will never be able to continue looking and discovering the wonders of this universe, and all that it holds.

There is only one universal natural rule (law) I'm upholding to, and thats the Golden Rule...

Anything after that is called Mental Manipulations.

There is nothing worst than those who build there own prisons, believing they do it in the name of free will, and want to entice others to join, so such a body can do harm to those who dont want to join in the madness called religion.

Roy

[zachhvac]

Its sick the money the educated fools are paid. Evolution is a lie just like naturalism. More stupid pointless crap for people to try and absolve themselves from and accountability for their actions.
Oh its not my fault i came from Ernie the ape , i didnt know any better.
There have been more scientist disapproving Darwin as time past including at the end of his life Darwin himself.

[homersodyssey]

Originally Posted by Hugh B

Here is a new topic for discussion. Naturalism is the position that matter, atoms, electrons, just the physical is all that exists. The position that there is nothing else making up the universe.

Oh shoot. I was thinking you wanted to discuss those skinny, hairy broads who get all naked in front of zoos and KFCs.

The question of God had a pretty decent discussion here not too long ago. A chap from Britain took the modern atheist position, a couple free thinkers on this side of the pond supported. However you'll have to lower your expectations a bit in regard to a rational discussion because the ol' circular defence of "God exists because the Bible says so" will appear.

[RoBoTeq]

I've always liked Carl Sagan. He could put astrophysics into terms that averager persons could understand. It really kind of bothered me when I heard him speak or read his writings dismissing God. Not because I disagree with him, but because I felt he was just really missing out on the real reason all that he loved and admired really existed.

I believe that nature and physics are the basic rules that God Created for how the physical world operates. In that sense, I somewhat agree with a lot of what Carl Sagan said about nature and the universe, I just disagree with how it all came to be.

[forged alloy]

There's the way things are.

And then there's the way that we perceive them.

If we view the way things are through our own prejudice or preconception, then it will obscure our vision, and everything will seem to reflect our view.

It doesn't make it right though, or make it true. This applies to even brilliant men such as Carl Sagan.

[Hugh B]

Originally Posted by RoBoTeq

I've always liked Carl Sagan. He could put astrophysics into terms that averager persons could understand. It really kind of bothered me when I heard him speak or read his writings dismissing God. Not because I disagree with him, but because I felt he was just really missing out on the real reason all that he loved and admired really existed.

I believe that nature and physics are the basic rules that God Created for how the physical world operates. In that sense, I somewhat agree with a lot of what Carl Sagan said about nature and the universe, I just disagree with how it all came to be.

Yup, reading Sagan has helped me understand a number of concepts within astronomy and astrophysics. Isaac Asimov is another one similar to Sagan. Asimov was an athiest evolutionist and held to naturalism but he sure was a great teacher-writer of science. I picked up a lot of physics thru Asimov. He put down a foundation in the sciences for me that made later study easier.

It is interesting that these brilliant minds embrace the athestic-naturalistic position.

[royc]

Originally Posted by Tool-Slinger

Carl Sagan is an arrogant Jacka55 if he thinks he knows "all there is, all there ever was, and all there ever will be."

And no, you cannot have a rational discussion with that kind of tripe as a basis for the topic.

You need to watch this and wise up to what reality is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIljY...e=channel_page

Roy

[bornriding]

I guess that you might call me a naturalist.. as I believe in the law of NATURE.

I believe that we are all ANIMALS, part of the animal family, just like dogs, cats, horses, cows, deer, etc.
I believe that all animals have the same instinctive behavior patterns.... anger, hunger, care of family, distrust, etc...
The only thing that seperates us is our ability to DECIDE instead of just react to our instinct. Though our instincts are the same as the other animals.

Believeing this is why I am totally against homosexuals ( don't want to start on this - just using this as an example ). If I ever saw two bulls getting it on, then I might alter my view, but as far as i am aware, no other species of animal does this...therefore it is UN-Natural.
Also nature shows that animals are inherently selfish ( I see it every day from my horses ), so we humans are inherently selfish.
Nature shows that animals are inherently scared of things that they don't understand...so are we.
I could keep going on, but ya'll get my drift.
This may not be what the OP had in mind when he started this thread, but I just had to chime in.

Thanks for listening,
Richard