Boiler Question

[ch4man]

My point was that, those interested in the field should be aware that newer buildings (ie: LEED) aren’t going to need substantial on site help. Sure, they might need a day porter who can change bulbs/ballasts, but highly skilled tradesman (such as boiler operators, master plumbers, electricians, etc) is only seen on site at older properties.

I take a great interest in this field, and do not believe it is fading out. With so many older buildings being revitalized to reflect their full architectural significance, the need for stationary engineers to service these buildings can only grow.

one of the unwritten laws in this trade states that how badly a system is screwed up is directly propotional to the arrogance of the engineer.

whats a "day porter"

are'nt you still in high school?


you sir are re-enforcing the stereo type of what most of the "highly skilled tradesman" think of engineers.

your responces are dripping with arrogance.


the good lord gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason... so you can listen twice as much as you talk

[ControlsInMT]

one of the unwritten laws in this trade states that how badly a system is screwed up is directly propotional to the arrogance of the engineer.

whats a "day porter"

are'nt you still in high school?


you sir are re-enforcing the stereo type of what most of the "highly skilled tradesman" think of engineers.

your responces are dripping with arrogance.


the good lord gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason... so you can listen twice as much as you talk

I just read what he wrote again in your post....I'm starting to believe he's that A-word.....architect!!!

[MHall]

MHall, it's about time everyone gives up on giving you facts and you ignoring them. You are worse than some of the hard headed individuals in the ARP section. Why don't you do us all a favor and subscribe to some of the trade magazines and start reading them from cover to cover. Once you have an understanding of the TRUE systems being installed in the large variety of buildings out there, perhaps we can have a logical discussion. Your lack of understanding of steam and your belief of electric strip heaters truely shows you have no experience in the industry. If you are going strictly off what "you have personally" been told, do yourself a favor and find a new group of friends to hang out with and ask questions of. Time and time again you have been given examples of hydronic heating in new buildings, steam being used, and NOBODY in their right mind using electric strip heaters as the primary heat source, yet you refuse to accept the truth. Please do us all a favor and yourself and read up on the subject.

Sorry for the rant, I am trying to be polite. Your constant disregard of reality from people that are actually in the trade is starting to wear on people's patience.

Once again, I apologize for trying the patience of those who have been helpful.

I wish I had more opportunities to tour different facilities, and learn about the variety of equipment that many here have talked about

I was not lying, when I stated that every new building I have been in had electric heat. I was also telling the truth, when I stated that it appears that only older buildings utilize boilers for hydronic space heating. I say this because that is what I’ve seen first hand.

You may have seen otherwise, but no new buildings where I live use boilers for space heating. I could probably count the number of places that use steam for space heating. One such place is my dad’s high school, built in 1957.

[Gus-Herb94]

Once again, I apologize for trying the patience of those who have been helpful.

I wish I had more opportunities to tour different facilities, and learn about the variety of equipment that many here have talked about

I was not lying, when I stated that every new building I have been in had electric heat. I was also telling the truth, when I stated that it appears that only older buildings utilize boilers for hydronic space heating. I say this because that is what I’ve seen first hand.

You may have seen otherwise, but no new buildings where I live use boilers for space heating. I could probably count the number of places that use steam for space heating. One such place is my dad’s high school, built in 1957.

It's time for you to hop in a car (or plane) and tour the northern cities. You will find that places like NYC, Chicago, Indianapolis etc are WORLDS different in how we do things regarding HVAC then what you've been accustomed to in the south. For one, up here, in residential having the ductwork in the basement/floor is much more common then putting everything in an attic, and the list keeps growing from there. I believe that's the point that everybody has been trying to get across all this time.

[MHall]

Here's the hospital I just did csd1Attachment 361141

Behind the two steam boilers are 3 massive water boilers, not sure on btu but they each have 2 2" relief valves. This was built in 98. No idiot would use electric around here.

When you say built in '98 are you refering to the building or the boilers themselves??? I didn't say it was uncommon for an old building to put new boilers in.What I did say is that new buildins do not utilize steam/hot water boilers for hydronic space heating.

[Chuck]

What I did say is that new buildins do not utilize steam/hot water boilers for hydronic space heating.

And that is where you are wrong. How many more people have to say it before you accept the fact??

As someone else said, hydronic heating is on the rise, it is not going away.

I can't believe I just wasted 30 minutes of my life reading this whole thread.

[Joehvac25]

When you say built in '98 are you refering to the building or the boilers themselves??? I didn't say it was uncommon for an old building to put new boilers in.What I did say is that new buildins do not utilize steam/hot water boilers for hydronic space heating.

98 was the build date of the hospital, everything is original.

[SolarMike]

Young dude and Mr Hall, There is a low pressure steam line in downtown Toronto that feeds a lot of buildings and they don't accept their condensate back. One of them is HUGE church where we took the condensate and did all the DHW and some new fan coils for an addition, THEN, did a large floor heat system before getting grid of the condensate.

Most of us on this thread put in NEW boilers in NEW buildings every day. I don't know where you are but EVERY condo building in this city (8 million people in our area and 1000's of new condos,) are heated by boilers. Most of them are low temp systems that go to suite heat pumps.

You got to get out more.....

[MHall]

Young dude and Mr Hall, There is a low pressure steam line in downtown Toronto that feeds a lot of buildings and they don't accept their condensate back. One of them is HUGE church where we took the condensate and did all the DHW and some new fan coils for an addition, THEN, did a large floor heat system before getting grid of the condensate.

Most of us on this thread put in NEW boilers in NEW buildings every day. I don't know where you are but EVERY condo building in this city (8 million people in our area and 1000's of new condos,) are heated by boilers. Most of them are low temp systems that go to suite heat pumps.

You got to get out more.....

I am in Dallas, and every new building here utilizes electric heat strips. Including the building I was an apprentice at. They were 15+ stories tall, and every floor had heatrix boxes. I have read that WSHP utilize electric as well.

For example some of the buildings in my area that have boilers for space heating include;

My high school built in 1963.[B][B]The boiler only heats the original part of the building. The newer additions all have RTUSB]

Royal Central Tower; built 1974.

Hall of State building (Fair Park). One of the few buildings that have steam. It was built in 1936.

My dad’s high school built in 1957. They also have steam heat.

This is an example of a few of the buildings in my area that utilize boilers for hydronic heat. As you can see all of them are older. This backs up my point.

You may debate this, but from what I can see district steam is used only in older buildings. I'm sure that is the case with the steam line in Toronto as well. A new building being built seems to use electric heat, because of the fact that it does not require; supply/return piping, pumps,etc.

Earlier in the thread I asked about buildings that have boiler operators. Here is a picture of the boiler room at my old elementary school built in 1954: .[ATTACH=CONFIG]361881[/ATTACH

The school has no boiler operator, and staff is NOT present 24/7. I thought a building with a boiler had to have an operator 24/7???

[Joehvac25]

In most cases someone has to log temps and pressures everyday, they don't have to have someone watching it 24/7 it's not a serial killer lol

[timmy2734]

You may debate this, but from what I can see district steam is used only in older buildings. I'm sure that is the case with the steam line in Toronto as well. A new building being built seems to use electric heat, because of the fact that it does not require; supply/return piping, pumps,etc.



Earlier in the thread I asked about buildings that have boiler operators. Here is a picture of the boiler room at my old elementary school built in 1954: .[ATTACH=CONFIG]361881[/ATTACH
The school has no boiler operator, and staff is NOT present 24/7. I thought a building with a boiler had to have an operator 24/7???

You don't need a boiler operator 24/7. The maintenance staff at the building you posted may(should) have somebody who is competent in its operation. I'm going to guess that that boiler is fully automatic. There's no need for an operator sitting there all day. Also, I'm going to assume that that building is not open around the clock. Do they shut down at the end of everyday? or do they continue heating with an empty building?

It's very common for new buildings to use RTU's. Your old school probably didn't do it for a few reasons. The old plant may not have enough capacity and to me the most obvious, would be that the work involved was probably not worth it to connect the 2 buildings. If you go back and re-read the thread, I've posted numerous links of new construction that show your theory is %100 wrong. Why you choose to continually ignore everything that everybody in here is telling you... I have no idea.

[rich pickering]

In most cases someone has to log temps and pressures everyday, they don't have to have someone watching it 24/7 it's not a serial killer lol

But having a valve before the pressure relief valve isn't exactly the smartest idea.

[MHall]

[QUOTE=timmy2734;15325661]
It's very common for new buildings to use RTU's. QUOTE]

You just stated exactly was I have been trying to emphasize. New buildings utilize RTUs rather than boilers/chillers. Why they do this, is what I don’t know. Perhaps the initial cost of the central plant?

[timmy2734]

No that's not really what you were emphasizing at all. You were preaching electric heat strips....

And to make blanket statements like buildings do only this or that is wrong. It completely depends on the application. There is no single answer.

[GT Jets]

MHall


This is getting stupid.

I am going to use one sentence to try and explain where your boo boo is.


You keep stating that "heat strips" are the primary source of heat in new buildings, you then say that when they have strip heat it is on a heat pump....


Heat pumps are the main source of heat.

GT

[MHall]

MHall


This is getting stupid.

I am going to use one sentence to try and explain where your boo boo is.

You keep stating that "heat strips" are the primary source of heat in new buildings, you then say that when they have strip heat it is on a heat pump....


Heat pumps are the main source of heat.

GT

I was refering to the backup heat. Sorry for the confusion. I still can't understand why the boiler in my picture does not have an operator. The staff member I spoke to, stated, he knew nothing about the boiler other than turning it on and off. They certainly do not have a boiler operator on site, even during operation on school days.

[timmy2734]

Because there's really no need to have an operator....that's not exactly a big plant lol.

Around here, with small low pressure, you're not going to have an operator sitting there all day. They'll usually be part of the maintenance crew doing other things. They'll start up/shut down and do routine maintenance. If it's a larger plant with low pressure steam, you may have an actual crew of guys.

High pressure is a whole different deal.

Again, it's building/plant specific.

[MHall]

Because there's really no need to have an operator....that's not exactly a big plant lol.

Around here, with small low pressure, you're not going to have an operator sitting there all day. They'll usually be part of the maintenance crew doing other things. They'll start up/shut down and do routine maintenance. If it's a larger plant with low pressure steam, you may have an actual crew of guys.

High pressure is a whole different deal.

Again, it's building/plant specific.

Thanks so much for the info. So, the boiler pictured, would not need an operator on a daily bases?

[timmy2734]

apparently it doesn't.

Different cities have there own laws for licensing and operation.

[GT Jets]

Thanks so much for the info. So, the boiler pictured, would not need an operator on a daily bases?

That is not a boiler, that is a big water heater....