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I witnessed first hand yesterday how certain brands and/or this industry can get such a bad reputation. It makes this site so valuable because it gives a place for us "standard guys" to get some knowledge so we can keep from getting screwed.
My neighbor had a new HP installed a year gao, and it has been nothing but a disaster, and they are blaming the brand. The new HP was a size bigger, and coupled to the 25 year old indoor coil. The compressor failed. New compressor and hard start kit was put in. Still didn't work. Then a new air handler was put it, because it was determined there was not enough air flow. Still problems. Then a new matched coil was installed. Then a new T-stat. Then another call-back because the T-stat needed to be wired differently. Still not right, my guess is because there is still not enough air flow because the ducting to me looks really small, but I don't know. Probably all could have been avoided if the correct sized HP with matching coil and air handler had been installed in the first place. They just got back from vacation yesterday, and I had to tell him that while he was gone when we had some days in the upper 40's the HP was not running, and the t-stat was showing "emergency heat". So, it broke again.
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Last edited by jpsmith1cm; 02-17-2013 at 10:41 AM. Reason: non AOP member
AOP Committee/Professional Member*
That's why the first thing any of the guys here will tell you is brand comes second in the decision, installer comes first. Mismatched systems are a nightmare and seldom function properly, it is a lot worse when it's a heat pump. Glad you are picking up on what goes on in the industry here on the site, it's too bad your neighbor got caught with his guard down. Thank you for using "Brand X" in your post instead of a manufacturer, shows an honest understanding of the real underlying problem we are faced with.
A good HVAC tech knows how, an educated HVAC tech knows why!
DEM
Professional Member*
What I will also tell you is that if brand X had any idea how there system had been incorrectly installed there would be no in warranty compressors for the homeowner.
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Regular Member
My neighbor doesn't skimp... And I could understand how it could happen, A guy comes into your house after an old HP dies, and reassures you he can get you fixed up, so you go for it. When I had my furnace installed last spring, a local guy quoted me a furnace bigger than what I previously had, saying it would be fine because it was 2-stage, but from what I gained on this site I knew he was steering me wrong. I ended up with a variable that is one size smaller than original, and it is still on the high side. Sharing my neighbor's story was more of a "thank you" for this site, not a complaint about the industry you all belong to. Mike
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Professional Member*
You sir are in a low percentage of customers that understand our industry and what we also have to deal with.Originally Posted by troyport
You even used brand X so as not to single out the make if the equipment. It sad that our industry still has people that work twice as hard to do things wrong instead of doing right the first time.
Plus you understand sizing of equipment! Most people jump in and say yes to larger equipment because they belive it will work better to heat and cool there homes. Just goes without saying that brand is not the most important thing. The 1st thing is the installing company. Size a system properly and have the info to back it up, make suggestions or offer options to the customer for system selections and be up front and honest with customers. If all this things are done you have the ingredients for a great install with any make or model equipment.
Professional Member*
Instances such as these give the industry a black eye. Now, your neighbor will lose a faith in any individual associated with this trade.
Unfortunately, There will always be the contractor who cuts corners, doesn't perform the correct procedures and the end result is a this very topic. That's why, we as contractors, need to do our very best to educate our customers. This site is such a valuable tool for any homeowner to help weed out those who are unfit and untrained.
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thanks for your post troyport.
glad you understand.
The cure of the part should not be attempted without the cure of the whole. ~Plato
Professional Member*
in reality he should never trust or use the crappy contractor again
Professional Member*
and troyport thought we were just some pretty faces
It`s better to be silent and thought the fool; than speak and remove all doubt.
Regular Member
Another page of this sad story. My neighbor's HP is broke again, and he's peeved. I caught his morning rant, and he said "this is supposed to be a good unit and it is much bigger than what used to be here so is should work better" I mentioned that maybe he should find another tech, but he scoffed at this idea, the tech he has is "a good guy".. I love the bigger is better comment. I can't wait to find out what was wrong this time.
AOP Committee/Professional Member*
This thread illustrates why we need Radio & Television, telephone talk programs, that help to educate both the HVAC consumer & all the HVAC installers & Tech service personnel.
There is a disparate need to reduce fossil fuel usage & for reducing utility bills; that won't happen with the average level of work being done in our industry.
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udarrell
Professional Member*
Educating the consumer is the only way this industry will turn around. Most company owners "not all" have no desire to size, install and repair equipment properly.
Until the point in time comes that the consumer is aware of what to ask for and requires it, it will be business as usual.
Professional Member*
amen to that. but the don't want hvac companies will to continue to do what they learned
when just getting into the biz. I had a guy tell me he would retire before installing heat pumps
& high effieicney equipment. if it has a computer anything...he won't do it.
you either rail against these guys or understand that theirs is
the bid to use as the example of what not to do.
the former is bad business, the latter is the compromise.
in my experience.
The cure of the part should not be attempted without the cure of the whole. ~Plato
Professional Member*
The thought pattern of not wanting to install heat pumps and high efficiency equipment is commonplace in our industry. Individuals do not want to take the time to become educated in the technical aspect of what is needed.
The other side of the coin can put some of the blame on the manufacturers. When there primary concern is moving product and not requiring dealers to be technically competent at what they do.
The dealers see this with the thought pattern that it should focus on marketing, and base the quality of there employees on sales quota and invoice dollar enhancement on each service call.
Then you have the dealers that do take the time to become educated and do the job properly, and they know it will take X amount of time and material to do a job for XXX dollars. They get undercut on jobs by other dealers that will drop the technical aspect "load calculations,duct design,equipment commissioning,etc." but still charge the full dollar amount that it would take to do the job correctly.
Professional Member*
yeah, I saw a different page of that book in duct sealing.
homeowners paid hvac installer to seal ducts to meet Energy Star
guidelines..put it in the contract..charged extra.
when I went back to inspect..no mastic.
its a long road, I wonder sometimes if I'll ever see standards upgraded
in my 'useful' life! LOL!
The cure of the part should not be attempted without the cure of the whole. ~Plato
Professional Member*
If your neighbor let some idiot install an oversized new higher efficiency HP on an old indoor air handler, then he bought nothing but trouble. Sad thing, but way too common. He should have called more than one firm, and never depend on just one, especially if the one offer him a "real deal". Also sounds like the outfit is simply chasing problems now, with his money!!
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Ops, posted twice!
Professional Member*
There's nothing about that story that would make me think there is an equipment problem. The comment about "Thermostat wired wrong" is a big BIG red flag! The problem started at equipment sizing and choosing to reuse a existing coil and ended with the isntaller not understanding how to wire up a heat pump correctly. I think your neighbor got what he paid for. Doesn't matter if the outside of the equipment had a big Orange, Blue or Red label.
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