Appion vs C&D

[hvaclover]

I've seen 50 on mine ( tez 8 ) , and I've seen 30 on a JB 10 cfm.

The Appion crt 's are RATED to 20 microns ( in response to others being rated to whatever number ). I mentioned the 20 micron rating and it added mess to the mess.

Who rated them to 20 microns?
I know the package says they are, but what nationally recognized agency lists them as being tested and approved to hold at 20 microns?

If they have no agency listing Appion could just be blowing hot air.


You don't need anything lower than a 200 micron vacuum. Any thing lower is just bragging rights and provides no extra benefit to system dryness.

[itsiceman]

You don't need anything lower than a 200 micron vacuum. Any thing lower is just bragging rights and provides no extra benefit to system dryness.

Maybe but any of these rated valves will just get worse over time and if you were starting out at 20 you got a head start on one that is starting out at 200

[itsiceman]

I've seen 50 on mine ( tez 8 ) , and I've seen 30 on a JB 10 cfm.

The Appion crt 's are RATED to 20 microns ( in response to others being rated to whatever number ). I mentioned the 20 micron rating and it added mess to the mess.

I've seen a video from the guy in the OP and his pump will pull down to zero so there

On a side note it sucks how his videos get taged so when I'm looking for one from someone like JimB. all his pop up about something not even close to what the search was about. If you're reading this could you tweek the tags alittle fritz unless you're making money off the videos then have at it I guess

[Chuck]

You gotta ask??????

Is that a problem?

Help me out here, hvac lover. Just curious what was wrong with my question.

[Chuck]

I've seen a video from the guy in the OP and his pump will pull down to zero so there

On a side note it sucks how his videos get taged so when I'm looking for one from someone like JimB. all his pop up about something not even close to what the search was about. If you're reading this could you tweek the tags alittle fritz unless you're making money off the videos then have at it I guess

Is fritz and hvac lover the same person?

[itsiceman]

Is fritz and hvac lover the same person?

I highly doubt that

[bsullins]

I got on the appion wagon too after reading all the good reviews. I have the same problem with my Appion CRT's, they will not pull a core. I also bought the 1/2" hoses w/ 3/8" x 1/4" fittings and the brass crimp was jacked up on both hoses. They should've noticed the bad crimp when they were in QC. I traded the hoses in for YJ 1/2" x 6'. I've tested my C&D CRT with 500# of pressure under water w/ no leaks.

[tech45]

Dudes ,

Rock on with the " brand B ". I have a good thing going with the Appions , but I'm not getting paid you know. If there is a faster train , you know I'm jumping on. From what I've seen of the other stuff it's just a barge of trash , but heck , I'll be watching. Live Free Brothers - t45

[jim bergmann]

This may not seem like Rocket Science, (vacuum) but I have proof it is.

http://engineer.jpl.nasa.gov/practices/1223.pdf

The Appion tools are designed for vacuum, the lower the vacuum rating, the faster you can pull the vacuum and the better the results under a standing pressure test. I did forward the Video to Appion.

We sell a lot of core tools and have not had any complaints of this problem. I do know however that every core is not exactly the same. It could be simply the tolerance of the core that was being tested and or even the brand of equipment that you install and the cores that come with it.

[itsiceman]

From left to right Appion New Version, Appion Old Version, C&D








I shot a video of one new version that is broken in and one new version that is basically out of the box. I'll see if I can't get it posted up. The old version worked just fine and still does. The C&D feels so sloppy the end is about to fall off and just barely holds a core.

[mark beiser]

that 20 micron thing is nice i guess, but supposedly, you risk boiling/evaporating the refrigerant oil past 250 microns.

It would take a rrreeeeeaaaaalllllllllyyyyyyyy lllllllllloooooooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng gggggggggggggggg ttttiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii immmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmeeeeeeeee to measurably reduce the volume of the refrigerant oil in the system with a vacuum pump.

[71CHOPS]

yeah that's kinda what I was figuring too.

[itsiceman]

This video has a new version with the stainless steel shaft with raised lip and light weight knob

I bought two and they both did the same thing. One is broken in and the other is still tight. My original Appion with the brass shaft never was an issue out of the box. I get how a guy would be pissed about it but to say they are better than the C&D's that will fail long before the Appion is a little silly. I haven't messed with the stiff Appion so maybe there is a drill size that will loosen them up quicker but my offer still stands. I'll trade you any day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iUmif68ntw

[hvaclover]

Maybe but any of these rated valves will just get worse over time and if you were starting out at 20 you got a head start on one that is starting out at 200

that's why they have maintenance schedules...you know...changing gaskets and O rings?

[hvaclover]

Is fritz and hvac lover the same person?

I highly doubt that

Yeah..I'm way cooler J/k Bill.

[hvaclover]

This may not seem like Rocket Science, (vacuum) but I have proof it is.

http://engineer.jpl.nasa.gov/practices/1223.pdf

The Appion tools are designed for vacuum, the lower the vacuum rating, the faster you can pull the vacuum and the better the results under a standing pressure test. I did forward the Video to Appion.

We sell a lot of core tools and have not had any complaints of this problem. I do know however that every core is not exactly the same. It could be simply the tolerance of the core that was being tested and or even the brand of equipment that you install and the cores that come with it.

I don't completely agree with you on your "the lower the vacuum rating the the faster you can pull a vacuum" statement. There are too many variables that effect evacuation time to make such a broad claim, and your generalization favors Appion for un-scientific reasons.

And tell me what listing agency or lab varied the 20 micron claim?

I learned a long time ago not to take all the specs a mfg attributes to his product with a grain of salt. There is a lot of marketing strategy and broad, some times thin, claims made about a lot of instruments capabilities in our trade.

[itsiceman]

If only one thing is different how could there be too many variables Clover?
If you got one system on any given day less leaky equipment will pull faster than equipment with more leaks. If you chose tighter equipment you will pull faster than if you didn't. Could be anybodies stuff. Not brand specific. I laughed about the vacuum rating too when they said the only ones vacuum rated and thought well nobody felt the need to rate them before so I guess they could be the only ones vacuum rated LOL
BTW where did you get the rating you posted on the C&D? Mine only came with a paper sheet with the part #'s in the little bag they were hanging on the shelf.

[fritzhvac]

This may not seem like Rocket Science, (vacuum) but I have proof it is.

http://engineer.jpl.nasa.gov/practices/1223.pdf

The Appion tools are designed for vacuum, the lower the vacuum rating, the faster you can pull the vacuum and the better the results under a standing pressure test. I did forward the Video to Appion.

We sell a lot of core tools and have not had any complaints of this problem. I do know however that every core is not exactly the same. It could be simply the tolerance of the core that was being tested and or even the brand of equipment that you install and the cores that come with it.

Hey Jim .
I was contacted by Christian today from Appion , and was told there IS a ISSUE with the New Appion Core Removers with the 2 Rubber O Rings , they will be sending me out 2 new Re-Developed Plungers to compare . Me & Eddie will Perform a Comparison Video for Everyone to see . I have pulled several Deep Vacuums with the Tool on Installations along with my Vacuum Rated Appion Hoses and Blanked Off and Held my Vacuum . The tool is Fantastic for Vacuum , my only issue was Removal .
They stated they were using New O Rings that , were within tolerance but they Push the Pin rather than Roll around it the way they are supposed to .

Thank You very much for taking the Time to View my Video and Email to Appion . I will forward the New Comparison Video directly to you Sir !!!

Fritz ...

[hvaclover]

[hvaclover]

If only one thing is different how could there be too many variables Clover?
If you got one system on any given day less leaky equipment will pull faster than equipment with more leaks. If you chose tighter equipment you will pull faster than if you didn't. Could be anybodies stuff. Not brand specific. I laughed about the vacuum rating too when they said the only ones vacuum rated and thought well nobody felt the need to rate them before so I guess they could be the only ones vacuum rated LOL
BTW where did you get the rating you posted on the C&D? Mine only came with a paper sheet with the part #'s in the little bag they were hanging on the shelf.

Only have the mfg's word on....just like Appion...so i guess we are going on faith.

B-ut one thing about the C&Ds are they are not making unsubstantiated claims where as Appion is saying they are RATED to 20 microns....and I still say SAYS WHO?

What independent nationally recognized entity rated them and what is the written standard they are measured against?

What Variables affect evac time: how aboutthings like how wet the system is, how long the line set, internal volume of eqip under evacuation, how many frickin' fitting on your evac tree, how long your hoses are, ambient atmospheric conditions, quality of pump oil, two stage rotary or pump or single stage, gas ballast or no gas ballast ect. ect.

Your CRT will let you pump down just as fast as any other as long as it is maintained. The "leaky" comment you made....one CRT rated at 200 mics and one at 20 mics (assuming it's true) will hold vacuum until it reaches its aforementioned threshold.

That's why all my vacs do not exceed 300 mics. But it does not leak from the git go just case it's rated at 200 mics.

And a 20 mics rating does not guarantee you a faster evac. Time and system condition and the variables mentioned do.