mod con boilers

[bfsman]

i am losing confidence.I put in alot of high eff. mod con boilers .I had a close friend ask me what boiler he should put in.My response was to pick one i just keep seeing expensive repairs and service calls and not so easy maintnence any body that actually services the equipment having the same problems

[ALASKAPF185]

The majority of my calls are from improper installation and improper application. Hardly anyone cleans the burner, and never do the installers make the homeowners aware of proper maintenance. beyond that I have seen some unusual boards & blowers going.

[enb54]

The majority of my calls are from improper installation and improper application. Hardly anyone cleans the burner, and never do the installers make the homeowners aware of proper maintenance. beyond that I have seen some unusual boards & blowers going.

This is absolutely correct. Poor installation and lack of maintenance equals many, many poor results. The new furnace/boiler technology(s) require rigid adherence to manufacturer's instructions, exactly like your vehicle maintenance. Deviating from the manufacturer's instructions/service requirements will guarantee certain early disaster, likely at the most inopportune times (like when it's freezing cold and service people are hardly available).

Just my own personal opinion based on hard experience...

[Chuck]

A properly sized and installed mod con boiler will save a lot more money than the annual maintenance will cost.

[bfsman]

yes i have seen some very exspensive boards ,gas valves and blowers fail.the problem of boilers that were installed incorectly will always exist.I am very concerned about the quality of the products there have recently been some major revisions in control logic. example house calls for 200,000btus install a 210,000 btu boiler.heat exchanger fails rep says boiler is to big because i have a 2 zones out of the 8 that have 30,000 btu conected loads boiler turns down 5 to one so it will short cycle bur out fans gas valves and boards.the new revised controlers that will help with this problem.by the way they can not adapt to the old boilers.there flaw my problem

[Freezeking2000]

yes i have seen some very exspensive boards ,gas valves and blowers fail.the problem of boilers that were installed incorectly will always exist.I am very concerned about the quality of the products there have recently been some major revisions in control logic. example house calls for 200,000btus install a 210,000 btu boiler.heat exchanger fails rep says boiler is to big because i have a 2 zones out of the 8 that have 30,000 btu conected loads boiler turns down 5 to one so it will short cycle bur out fans gas valves and boards.the new revised controlers that will help with this problem.by the way they can not adapt to the old boilers.there flaw my problem

8000 sf home or what?

I have rarly had a home need much more than 100K

[beenthere]

5:1 turn down on a 210,000 BTU boiler, would put it at 42,000 BTUs at min. more then acceptable for a 30,000 BTU zone.

In a case where 1 or 2 smaller zones are too small. Slaving the smaller zones together, or to a similar use zone helps.

[Chuck]

5:1 turn down on a 210,000 BTU boiler, would put it at 42,000 BTUs at min. more then acceptable for a 30,000 BTU zone.

In a case where 1 or 2 smaller zones are too small. Slaving the smaller zones together, or to a similar use zone helps.

Or simply replace your hydraulic separator with a buffer tank to add some mass for when one minizone calls. If that zone is way smaller than the lowest firing rate.

[bfsman]

the factory rep shocked me i thought the same thing 40,000 would be just fine he wanted to limit btu by caping combustion fan speed with lab top software i would not let him because the boiler btus matched the house loads.He took off system sensor to help rapid heat rise and admitted this was a problem and assured me the new control logic would help this problem.almost all these boilers have the same logic.I AM A LITTLE ANOYED TO SAY THE LEAST THAT THIS NEW LOGIC WILL NOT WORK ON THIS 2 YEAR OLD BOILER.HE WANTED TO CAP THE OUTPUT AT 175,000 HE SPENT ALOT OF TIME ON THE PHONE WITH ENGINEERS

[skippedover]

the factory rep shocked me i thought the same thing 40,000 would be just fine he wanted to limit btu by caping combustion fan speed with lab top software i would not let him because the boiler btus matched the house loads.He took off system sensor to help rapid heat rise and admitted this was a problem and assured me the new control logic would help this problem.almost all these boilers have the same logic.I AM A LITTLE ANOYED TO SAY THE LEAST THAT THIS NEW LOGIC WILL NOT WORK ON THIS 2 YEAR OLD BOILER.HE WANTED TO CAP THE OUTPUT AT 175,000 HE SPENT ALOT OF TIME ON THE PHONE WITH ENGINEERS

This discussion really belongs on the pro side. bfsman, you should apply for pro status so you can join us over there.

[bfsman]

NOT ENOUGH CREDENTIALS TO BE A PRO

[skippedover]

Well then, keep postin'. You'll get there. I know you've got the credentials. Just not the posts. Take tomorrow off and put up some more posts. Then apply for pro status.

[ALASKAPF185]

The last one I seen was a 1 yr old 6000' ranch not including the basement. Only a 50K wall mounted munchkin, 9000' of radiant (including the garage) and a 120 gallon Superstore. Hmmm plugged condensate caused all kinds of burner issues. It was one of those cheap white rubber traps (factory supplied), KUSTOM connected to a 3/8 drain line. I guess the hole in the concrete outside and in didn't alarm homeowner enuff. No co test was done when set up, well over 400ppm on high fire. Rep did come out he was good, and he made a "certain" change and said he'd turn it into a 140 because the comb chambers were the same for the 50-80-140.

[skippedover]

Yeah, right. These factory reps are getting high on their own technology and they're screwing people without knowing it. They change the programming for the inducer blower to change the boiler input. That works well as long as the original control board is in the boiler. But when (not IF, but WHEN) the control board tanks and a guy puts a new one in, it's going back to the original rating, not the modified rating. That modification went away with the old board.

In days gone by, I did some factory work on the old HeatMakers. They were also multi-rated for different sizes and all one had to do was change the gas orifice and combusiton air disk. But once those were changed, the tag was also changed on the boiler and unless someone changed the orifice or disk, no matter what else on the boiler was changed, it would always be the new size. That's not the case when reprogramming a digital board. So much for progress.

[bfsman]

i have come up with asolution all on my own make them accountable a 10 year part warranty out of the box or how about a 36,000 mile warranty increase the waranty increase the quality.now its a joke they will through anything together.JUst like cars a factory warranty

[enb54]

Yeah, right. These factory reps are getting high on their own technology and they're screwing people without knowing it. They change the programming for the inducer blower to change the boiler input. That works well as long as the original control board is in the boiler. But when (not IF, but WHEN) the control board tanks and a guy puts a new one in, it's going back to the original rating, not the modified rating. That modification went away with the old board.

In days gone by, I did some factory work on the old HeatMakers. They were also multi-rated for different sizes and all one had to do was change the gas orifice and combusiton air disk. But once those were changed, the tag was also changed on the boiler and unless someone changed the orifice or disk, no matter what else on the boiler was changed, it would always be the new size. That's not the case when reprogramming a digital board. So much for progress.

So what was wrong with that (the old way)? I have researched many modern boilers/furnaces and found that reliability is just what you have implied. Perhaps there is something amiss with the modern regulations, in that they don't take into account the long, long term costs of operation. Not to get into a fight here, but my mom's old boiler finally gave out after 86 years, so why can't our better modern technology do as well?

Just a comment... Not a stand...

[skippedover]

So what was wrong with that (the old way)? I have researched many modern boilers/furnaces and found that reliability is just what you have implied. Perhaps there is something amiss with the modern regulations, in that they don't take into account the long, long term costs of operation. Not to get into a fight here, but my mom's old boiler finally gave out after 86 years, so why can't our better modern technology do as well?

Just a comment... Not a stand...

The new boilers are all about efficiency. The old boilers were all about providing heat at any cost. So the old technology was a big, heavy, cast iron block with a lot of water within it. Todays boilers have very thin heat exchangers and very little water within. Since the flame must be large to heat the home, the water circulation through the boiler must be proper or the boiler will quickly melt. All of the controls needed to insure proper circulation (circulator motors do stop working sometimes) and/or flame control is a major issue.

The problem addressed in this thread is that the boiler manufacturer blew the design. By that I mean that they've rated the boiler at 200,000 and thier design error is that it fires the boiler at maximum first, then backs it down to as low as 1/5 of maximum or 40,000 Btu's. So when a small zone calls, it's not the 40,000 Btu turndown that's the issue, it's the 200,000 Btu start-up with only 30,000 Btu's of circulation. If they had fired the boiler at 40,000 Btu's and then increased to 200,000, there would be no problem.

So the tech reps solution is to cap the boiler maximum at 160,000 Btu's and hope the small zone can handle the reduced input on start up long enough to keep the boiler vessel from failing in 3 years again. Mind you, the boiler is and was properly sized for a 160,000 Btu design temperature load. That manufacturer now has a new model of the boiler out that does fire at a lower stepped rate and that can be set at 6 different level for 6 different loads, eliminating the problem. But they claim they can't retrofit that technology into the "older" models, so once again, the installing company gets screwed by the factories failure to properly know what goes on out in the field. Not all the world is a laboratory. Most manufacturers haven't figure that out as yet.