ReplyIf you were able to maintain indoor comfort with 3.0 tons ne need to over size your unit. More is not better.
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Let me put it this way. If your 3 ton can maintain your home at 72* its not undersized, but its sure to be oversized with a 4 ton!
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If you were able to maintain indoor comfort with 3.0 tons ne need to over size your unit. More is not better.
Quality and Value Service and Repair
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Only in our wife's minds and our paychecks.Originally Posted by Freezeking2000
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“Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards" ~ Vernon Law
"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts." ~ John Wooden
"When the teachers become unteachable we're all in trouble" ~ Mr. Bill
"Remember "Pro" is only a name, it's not always a mindset determined to do everything correctly" ~ Mr. Bill
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LOL Oh I hear ya, loud and clear!And you know what? in the real world this should be how things work, but in my past 30 years of dealing with tire kickers, I just tell the customer to text me the model and serials off their equipment and I will text them a price.
But i got you on the 30 years, I've put up with it for 42 years.
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jimj: You are 100% correct!!! The company that is the most professional and does their homework i.e. gets the business. If the second company won't come in and do the load calculation - they are out!! Because something is very wrong, at least in our situation, if we have a 3 ton and it should be a 4 ton.
Mr. Bill: we don't operate the way your customers do. I'm happy to say that we are financially stable enough to be able to make a decision that is based on quality installation, reputation, professionalism, the correct configuration and "not" just who is offering us the best price.
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Now you really had me encouraged with your wisdom, now please don't tell me you really believe this below.
__________________________________________________ _______________________
“Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards" ~ Vernon Law
"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts." ~ John Wooden
"When the teachers become unteachable we're all in trouble" ~ Mr. Bill
"Remember "Pro" is only a name, it's not always a mindset determined to do everything correctly" ~ Mr. Bill
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You know we always charge more if customers don't have any sense of humor.
__________________________________________________ _______________________
“Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards" ~ Vernon Law
"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts." ~ John Wooden
"When the teachers become unteachable we're all in trouble" ~ Mr. Bill
"Remember "Pro" is only a name, it's not always a mindset determined to do everything correctly" ~ Mr. Bill
Regular Guest
Mr. Bill I have a great sense of humor but I was getting the feeling that because price was not the deciding factor, you were thinking I was full of it!
To me: bad installation and wrong recommendation means lots of $$$$$ in the long run.
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Maybe the second company that did the original install did a load calc on the first install and you have stayed comfy all these years, i would trust the facts more than a new load calc
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Know that is very possible! I would ask the org. Poster to use a little common sense. I your current (3) ton has done the job for many years & maintains 72 when why in the world would you let someone lead you to alive that you need to increase the size of your system?
It could be that he other company is not imputing something right into there load, trying to stir you away from your current company by calming your system is undersized, etc... Who knows but without either one providing you a load in writing then you really don't know.
Just remember that your current system per you is a (3) ton and has kept your home comfortable for years but now you need a (4) ton.. Just does not make since at all hints (common sense) & bigger is not better as others have also stated!
Footnote: I can make any home look like that it needs a (4) ton system, it boils down to what date you input into the load software.
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Total Life Cost
What gives you the impression that a 12-year old system might be "old" and in need of replacement ?
I don't see any discussion here that " New and better" can actually
be quantified.
One might guess that 2.5 to 3 ton unit would be sufficient for a house less than 30 years old unless it is " a leaker" / drafty.
Designer Dan __ It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with Some Art. _ _ KEEP IT SIMPLE & SINCERE ___ __ www.mysimplifiedhvac.com ___ __ Define the Building Envelope & Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows & Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities
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You ask "why" a new system? Because in the past two years we have spent over $ on repairs not only for the a/c but for the furnace. A part is always going and lets face it parts + labor is $$$$$$. Why in the world would we want to sink any more money into an a/c heating system that is low end and going on 13 years old? Maybe you would but I have a major problem when I have to chancel my flight out on Christmas because I wake up to a house with no heat. Then in March I had to cancel my vacation and flight (pay major penalties) because again I woke up to a home with no heat. Both of which were completely different parts. Not to mention the numerous times this a/c has shut down and the the money I have paid to get people in her to diagnose it and repair it. Again, I live in NY and nothing is cheap here.What gives you the impression that a 12-year old system might be "old" and in need of replacement ?
I don't see any discussion here that " New and better" can actually
be quantified.
One might guess that 2.5 to 3 ton unit would be sufficient for a house less than 30 years old unless it is " a leaker" / drafty.
By the way, there is no way a 2.5 ton would work in our home!! As I said in an earlier post - "I can get it down to 70 but we "do not remember" if it ran all day to stay there!!! We are very much aware that "bigger is not better" and we completely understand why.
If you read my earlier posts, I explained that when the a/c heating was designed for this model home there the square footage was less. i.e. there was no loft, no skylights, upstairs hall was smaller with "no" open walls etc.
The original installer was asked to designed the proper unit based on the above. In later phases of building in our private community, the builder offered an option of converting the attic to a loft, made the upper hallway bigger and eliminated walls so that you can see, on one side, down into the living area, and not the other side, down into the entry hall.
It is our believe that the builder never took into consideration how this would affect the original load calculation.
Again, "we do not know "enough" to determine if the condenser has been straining all of these years to maintain the temperature and its always much warmer upstairs especially because of the three skylights".
In addition, from the moment we moved in we have had problems with the a/c. Every so often it would blow out warm air. We were told by the people who installed it to just shut it down for a half hour and turn it back on. "he told us it was normal for that to happen once in a while". We did as he suggested and it continued to work. It would happen maybe 3 times over the course of each summer.
We think the minimum size this home can be is around 1,816 sq. ft., with an open floor plan, open staircase, two story walls, open loft, three skylights.
Off the top of your head, does that sound like a 2.5 condenser?
Last edited by beenthere; 07-15-2012 at 11:21 AM. Reason: price
Professional Member*
A house that has the correct sized AC will run for hours and hours when it gets hot out so not remembering if it ran all day or not has no bearing. The fact that it could maintain desired temp means the 3 ton is plenty big enough. The company that suggested a 4 ton,that did the load calc, had to have input some wrong data.
Regular Guest
[QUOTE=duckman06;13727861]Know that is very possible! I would ask the org. Poster to use a little common sense. I your current (3) ton has done the job for many years & maintains 72 when why in the world would you let someone lead you to alive that you need to increase the size of your system?
It could be that he other company is not imputing something right into there load, trying to stir you away from your current company by calming your system is undersized, etc... Who knows but without either one providing you a load in writing then you really don't know.
Just remember that your current system per you is a (3) ton and has kept your home comfortable for years but now you need a (4) ton.. Just does not make since at all hints (common sense) & bigger is not better as others have also stated!
The reason I started this topic is because I was shocked at the recommendation. I had narrowed it down to two reputable companies that we wanted proposals from. The first company, who did not install it but whom we have been using to service our a/c and heating for the past few years, is the company who came in and did the load calculation and stated in their proposal that our unit was undersized.
The second company, who did the initial installation when all the homes in our community were built: provided me with a proposal and told me they would come in and do a load calculation "after" we sign a contract. They did the original load calculation "before" the builder began offering the loft option for this home which in turn added a larger hallway and opened up the walls on both side of the hall so you can look down into the living areas. Because of this, I told the second company that its very possible the original design may need to be changed and how could they give me an accurate proposal if they are basing it on what was originally put in here.
Some of you have stated that your not going to go out and do a load calculation so a customer can then get quotes based on your work.
What ever happened to "earning the business"!!!!! You mean to tell me that a potential customers is expected to spend $ + and its not worth it for you to do a load calculation? How do you know if your recommending the correct system? How do you know if the original installer put in the correct system? How do you know if the owner is correct with the sq. footage of their home? and most importantly: How in the world can you recommend the "correct" system without doing a load calculation "first"? If your concerned, why don't you charge to do it then tell the customer if they do business with you it will be refunded? Either way, I still ask "what about earning someones business"?
We are not ignorant enough to call 10 suppliers just to price shop. My number one priority is a reputable company, who does great installs and if out of those few companies one can give me a better price then he will get the business. Where I live, I don't expect to see a significant difference in price.
I think before I spend this kind of money I am entitled to see the load calculation and justification for the recommended system. To be told that "after" I sign a contract they will come and do a load calculation is BS. Suppose the configuration changes and its more money and I don't want to spend it or I can't get any more opinions because I'm not stuck in this contract? It sounds A** backwards if you ask me.
Lastly, I don't see anything unusual with getting second and third opinions. Even if its a company that you have dealt with and seem to trust, I will still get a second and third opinion.
Last edited by beenthere; 07-15-2012 at 11:20 AM.
Professional Member*
Here is some information for you, the article was written by the author and co author of Manual J8. Pay special attention to the last sentence on the last page.
Dividing square ft by a magic number "like 500" to arrive at tonnage is not doing a load! What would your needed tonnage be with this magic formula?
As I said earlier my company always does at minimum a manual J block load and I ALWAYS show the customer. IMHO if a salesman is not showing you his load he did a dog and pony show and used the magic formula. As I and others have said it sounds like your present system is properly sized if not over-sized.
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Thanks, I will definitely read it. I also feel that by getting a load calculation from the second company, we can put this issue to bed
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I know you just wished I would go away. What ever happened to earning the business? Let me tell you what happened "Tire Kickers" happened, and just because your not a tire kicker, well you don't strike me as one, we deal with them all the time, I have personally dealt with them for 30 years. I know a company's here in Houston that have spent "over" 3 hrs doing a set of load calculations, just to be called up the next day by the customer saying, we appreciate you coming out, but were going to go with someone else. I mean how long can a normal human work for free and be rejected? I guess if I go to the local steak house and tell them I will need a table for 50 on Friday night @ 7:00 pm, but to "earn my business" could you please cook up my wife and I, a couple of Filet Mignon's and with a couple glasses of Dom Perignon. Our time is valuable also, and the person we have out there doing the load calculation is not working for free, we are paying him, and if it's a tech in 3 hrs "depending on the tech" could be one hundred dollars or more. You can't stereo type businesses, do you pull into your local Shell station and tell the attendant, our company has 20 vehicles and we might possibly start using your station, but to earn my business could you fill up my truck now, it only holds 40 gallons, you think he is going to fill it up? I think not.
Last edited by jpsmith1cm; 07-15-2012 at 11:59 AM. Reason: edited quote
__________________________________________________ _______________________
“Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards" ~ Vernon Law
"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts." ~ John Wooden
"When the teachers become unteachable we're all in trouble" ~ Mr. Bill
"Remember "Pro" is only a name, it's not always a mindset determined to do everything correctly" ~ Mr. Bill
God Speed, Jim. We'll miss you - 2-26-23
Second company may still have their original; load calcs, and be using them. Along with if they asked you if it could maintain temp. They may have decided their original calcs are still valid.
When a company says your current unit is under sized. When it was maintaining set temp. Thats a good indication that they fudged the load calc to meet what they thought it should have by square footage.
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It sounds like there is a lot of confusion on what the actual square footage is. Why don't you measure this yourself? You have one company saying its 1900 plus and another calling it 1600 plus, someone is wrong.
I agree with most others, upsizing doesn't occur often when load calcs are done, the 3 ton cooled fine, I would have some concerns.
Professional Member*
To the OP I am sure you are trying to be through and meticulous in your approach but in this conversation you are being very obtuse. You have been told several times that based on your own word this current system maintains temps way beyond design. If your current system will maintain greater than TWENTY DEGREES indoor to outdoor differential and cycle on a degree day IT IS OVERSIZED. A properly sized and designed system SHOULD RUNS CONSTANTLY at or over a design degree day. So in New York lets assume a design degree day is 92* and you can maintain or reach 70* your unit IS NOT UNDERSIZED. If it runs constantly at 92* to maintain 72* then you have a properly sized unit.
I design for Huston and I design for 75* 50% RH on a 100* day and I do homes over 4000 sq.ft. with under three tons all of the time. If you have an area of your home that is uncomfortable but you can maintain the temps you state YOU HAVE DISTRIBUTION problems not a size issue.
Just for your edification I do not provide load calculations or material list until a contract is signed. I have had numerous Homeowners take my load calcs and design and have other companies perform the work for less money. They all call back because it does not work because the other company does not have the skills or knowledge to properly install the system. I have even had a few with the temerity to demand that I fix the problem at my cost because I did the design work.
At this point I would recommend going with the original contractor or find a new contractor DO NOT GO WITH THE FIRST COMPANY they are a dog and pony show contractor.
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