Advice Sought for a High Performance New Construction in Houston

[Mr Bill]

Perhaps you should contemplate the meaning of your signature: "The critic is a prisoner to his own experiences and perspectives, erroneously believing his limited experiences are the sum of all truth".

So trying to draw a few conclusions on the pros and cons of these systems, have now categorized me as a critic, and an old school tech that don't want to seek a better heating or cooling application for the residential market? Ok you win, I will just relax and read.

[CraziFuzzy]

And I agree! but if it were me no matter how scientific I was about it, I would like to see both the pros and cons of something like this, so I could make a decision based on my ability to understand. I am not saying this application will not work in a residential application, I just would like to know why it has not been implemented into the market more, and as I said I am not buying it's our fault. If the application is really worthy of all your fuss, and is more economical, and just makes better sense than all the newer technology conventional systems, maybe you should petition the White House to get your message out. They might even make up some high paying job to give you, this is what they do anyway right?

So contribute to the discussion. state the cons in a non-sarcastic, and scientific tone, without resorting to hyperbole about NASA, the President, and systems costing more than the house. This is AOP, not ARP.

[Mr Bill]

This is AOP, not ARP.

Wow! I knew I missed my turn off Well as long an he can find someone to service his new system, maybe he should set an example for the Houston market. Then I can go by and see how happy he is with his new investment, and possibly start selling these systems. This is about as scientific as I can get, but I can cook a good rib-eye if this helps.

[CraziFuzzy]

Wow! I knew I missed my turn off Well as long an he can find someone to service his new system, maybe he should set an example for the Houston market. Then I can go by and see how happy he is with his new investment, and possibly start selling these systems. This is about as scientific as I can get, but I can cook a good rib-eye if this helps.

If that is the extent of your input to the discussion, then I'm not sure anything you've written in this thread has been of much help - bordering on reportable trolling. If that is how houston techs are, then you are right, he's screwed even thinking about it.

[Mr Bill]

If that is the extent of your input to the discussion, then I'm not sure anything you've written in this thread has been of much help - bordering on reportable trolling. If that is how houston techs are, then you are right, he's screwed even thinking about it.

Thanks for your compliments, this is why we Pro's are so far apart on some things, the condemnation we get just for disagreeing with someone that's not even in the same market area, to know the pro's and con's of installing a system like this here. I would not limit this idea of unknowledgeable techs to Houston, my guess it's prevalent in a lot of areas, except in your area. You should pack up and come down here and prove to us old dumb redneck a/c dudes how it's done, all I have heard is talk, what is it that some say, talk is cheap?

[CraziFuzzy]

Thanks for your compliments, this is why we Pro's are so far apart on some things, the condemnation we get just for disagreeing with someone that's not even in the same market area, to know the pro's and con's of installing a system like this here. I would not limit this idea of unknowledgeable techs to Houston, my guess it's prevalent in a lot of areas, except in your area. You should pack up and come down here and prove to us old dumb redneck a/c dudes how it's done, all I have heard is talk, what is it that some say, talk is cheap?

I said nothing about anyone's knowledge level. My problem was with the way you stated your opinions in an unprofessional manner, not with the opinions themselves. If you have a concern or question about a part of the system, by all means, bring it up, and we can discuss it in a civilized manner. You never did that though. The only remotely technical statement you made was regarding the voltage used in homes compared to commercial, which I already explained has no bearing on this discussion. Scroll compressors are readily available in all voltage/phase counts, and 220/60/1ø is already the most common variety sold in the US, and I'm betting you've installed your share of them. In any event, I am confused as to what is so hard to understand about the residential chiller. I'm pretty certain you've discussed working on geothermal systems here.

So why is it that you are comfortable with this change:


Yet deterred by this one:



The components are no different than the geothermal system, just connected on the opposite side of the system.

As it stands, no matter what the merits of residential hydronic cooling, I'm pretty certain at this point the OP has long given up pursuing it further, because the seasoned professional in his local area who admitted he didn't have any real experience in it has repeatedly brushed it off as a ridiculous pie-in-the-sky idea that would never be possible/practical.

[dan sw fl]

If that is the extent of your input to the discussion, then I'm not sure anything you've written in this thread has been of much help - bordering on reportable trolling.
If that is how houston techs are, then you are right, he's screwed even thinking about it.

x 2

BUT the one's with even limited Chilled Water System Knowledge
AND
who know how to 'think outside of a small box'
WOULD _OWN_ A NEW MARKET.

[dan sw fl]

http://www.thermalflow.net/water_coo...erformance.htm

http://www.multiaqua.com/

[vangoghsear]

I think before we call in NASA for their we should move off track a bit to operating costs, with a single-phase system. Of course this idea is great were you have a 600 volt 3Ph system or even a 440 volt 3Ph available.

A 36,000 output btuh Unico chiller pulls 19 Amps at 208/230v/1 plus 560 watts for the pump. A 14 SEER condenser pulls about 23 amps at 208/230v/1. So far I'm not seeing the big deal?

[motoguy128]

If you have any space on your property or under a large driveway, you could install ground loops and go wit ha water to water geo unit. It would supply hot and cold water, then use a small boiler for supplemental heating and domestic hot water if needed. However, it might have enough capacity to do everything and not need a boiler at all in your climate, in a very well insulated home. Radiant floor heat with and air handler for cooling, ventilation and dehumidification.

[Mr Bill]

Those consumers who visit this board, and especially those who are interested in the building science, should be encouraged to ask the questions that will further the market along, not to settle with what has already been the answer given to every uneducated potential customer by lazy minded salesmen for the last 40 years. Most of the advances in residential systems for the last 20 years (2 stage/variable speed compressors, mini-splits, kludgy zoning systems, whole home dehumidifiers, and so on) are all workarounds to the flaws in DX cooling. All flaws that are not an issue in chilled water based systems. I have not even brought up the nationwide problems of peak electrical demand, and the ease of load shifting the acceptance of chilled water provides.

See since probably 98% of us on this board make our money selling conventional systems as the ones you degraded above, what kind of attitude are we supposed to have with this statement above? it's very derogatory. If you and your ideas want to take over the a/c world, you can do it without dissing the systems we work and sell everyday. I was just feeding you a little of your own medicine, and you begin to call me names like a troll, and cutting Houston Techs, but it did bring out your true character.

[vangoghsear]

The OP sought Advice-for-a-High-Performance-New-Construction-in-Houston.

In response to that we could have said add a roof venting system designed to induce draft and pull outside air through a large deep underground pipe system, then dehumidify the entering air with a liquid desiccant waterfall regenerated with hydronic solar panels using gravity and water density to move the water. I got news for you, it's been done and it would work, the entire energy use would be from a small pump to move the desiccant.

If you then said "Good luck getting someone to design and install that." I'd have to agree with you, even though it is not high tech (or even new tech) there are issues such as condensation in the underground tubes, the harshness of desiccant damaging equipment, just how to induce enough draft, parts would not be available and would have to be fabricated, etc...such a system would have to be engineered and modeled then designed and built to detailed drawings.

What we suggested is chilled water, used since the 1800s, applied to a residence. Thousands of contractors work with it daily in commercial work, parts and components are off the shelf and readily available and the technology is tried and tested and easily installed with just a few calculations, same as a DX system (load calcs are the same, pipe sizing is a bit different, but no big deal and air side is the same).

[Mr Bill]

The OP sought Advice-for-a-High-Performance-New-Construction-in-Houston.

In response to that we could have said add a roof venting system designed to induce draft and pull outside air through a large deep underground pipe system, then dehumidify the entering air with a liquid desiccant waterfall regenerated with hydronic solar panels using gravity and water density to move the water. I got news for you, it's been done and it would work, the entire energy use would be from a small pump to move the desiccant.

If you then said "Good luck getting someone to design and install that." I'd have to agree with you, even though it is not high tech (or even new tech) there are issues such as condensation in the underground tubes, the harshness of desiccant damaging equipment, just how to induce enough draft, parts would not be available and would have to be fabricated, etc...such a system would have to be engineered and modeled then designed and built to detailed drawings.

What we suggested is chilled water, used since the 1800s, applied to a residence. Thousands of contractors work with it daily in commercial work, parts and components are off the shelf and readily available and the technology is tried and tested and easily installed with just a few calculations, same as a DX system (load calcs are the same, pipe sizing is a bit different, but no big deal and air side is the same).

From a Professional to Professional, this is the kind of response we should expect form each other, a "Professional Response" and I appreciate it, when folks work together in this business, it opens up ideas that benefits everyone, the homeowners and our trade in general. Thanks for your encouraging response.

[CraziFuzzy]

From a Professional to Professional, this is the kind of response we should expect form each other, a "Professional Response" and I appreciate it, when folks work together in this business, it opens up ideas that benefits everyone, the homeowners and our trade in general. Thanks for your encouraging response.

You do know that was all covered four pages ago - perhaps that is why I was so frustrated by your snide responses - when we talked about it being used commercially for many years, right? And the tone was 'Professional to Professional', as you say, until you started riding the hyperbole train. The only difference between my early responses and vangoghsear's is the avatar - so i'm wondering who is drawing unfounded conclusions about whom?

Your very first post was basically saying that no matter what the OP wanted, he was not going to find a system that works in Houston, because the 'Science' wasn't there yet. We then proceeded to show that that was completely false, and it was the market, and the residential industry, that wasn't there, not the science.

Howdy neighbor. Mr. Bear, you will find tons of good information here, and lots of great Pro's with all the science, but "bear" in mind "no pun intended" we live in the "Bermuda Triangle" of the a/c world, they haven't developed any a/c science really works 100% here "yet" but I hear NASA is on it.

[Mr Bill]

The only difference between my early responses and vangoghsear's is the avatar - so i'm wondering who is drawing unfounded conclusions about whom?

If you then said "Good luck getting someone to design and install that." I'd have to agree with you, even though it is not high tech (or even new tech) there are issues such as condensation in the underground tubes, the harshness of desiccant damaging equipment, just how to induce enough draft, parts would not be available and would have to be fabricated, etc...such a system would have to be engineered and modeled then designed and built to detailed drawings.

Yea, I must have missed your response that talked about some of the negatives, your right the only difference was the avatar, sorry about that.

[CraziFuzzy]

Yea, I must have missed your response that talked about some of the negatives, your right the only difference was the avatar, sorry about that.

The only negatives were already covered. Fewer residential techs are familiar with the system, and there are fewer companies making the chillers, leading to a higher cost. The negatives vangoghsear listed were not for chilled water systems, they were for the induced draft-liquid desiccant system.

[vangoghsear]

The negatives vangoghsear listed were not for chilled water systems, they were for the induced draft-liquid desiccant system.

Correct.

[classical]

Ya'll have to understand that is just how Bill is, he just does not write in a straight serious nature most times.

There are several considerations people not from Houston must understand, first HVAC here is very cheap I mean downright cheap; trying to get a reasonable rate for your work is like puling teeth. Everyone is undercutting the others price just to get work and the vast majority doing the work have no real knowledge or skills.

Trying to introduce a new concept is near impossible so most do not try and will not expend the effort or money to educate themselves or their customers because it is a wasted effort. Yes, Bear, may well be the exception or he may not and ultimately go for the common/ordinary design. No offense to you Bear I have just seen too many espouse the rhetoric, I will spend extra for quality, waste mine or others time and then just go the cheap route; I hope you do not.

Next the reason HVAC is so cheap our homes are cheap compared to most other large metropolitan areas, you get more sq.ft. per dollar here than almost anywhere and people move on average every five years so they will not invest 15% or more of thir homes value in something that will not pay for itself in a few years.

I have proposed many hydronic systems over the last decade and not one has been sold, I have sold systems that were nearly as costly but more conventional because the homeowner ultimately felt more comfortable with an SOP design, partially because everyone else told them my option was not viable.

As far as getting a commercial company to do the work, I have seen to many local debacles from comm. company forays into the residential field to be hopeful of an acceptable outcome.

[CraziFuzzy]

And trust me, there are plenty of techs in Houston who are familiar with Chilled Water:

[vangoghsear]

Ya'll have to understand that is just how Bill is, he just does not write in a straight serious nature most times.

There are several considerations people not from Houston must understand, first HVAC here is very cheap I mean downright cheap; trying to get a reasonable rate for your work is like puling teeth. Everyone is undercutting the others price just to get work and the vast majority doing the work have no real knowledge or skills.

Trying to introduce a new concept is near impossible so most do not try and will not expend the effort or money to educate themselves or their customers because it is a wasted effort. Yes, Bear, may well be the exception or he may not and ultimately go for the common/ordinary design. No offense to you Bear I have just seen too many espouse the rhetoric, I will spend extra for quality, waste mine or others time and then just go the cheap route; I hope you do not.

Next the reason HVAC is so cheap our homes are cheap compared to most other large metropolitan areas, you get more sq.ft. per dollar here than almost anywhere and people move on average every five years so they will not invest 15% or more of thir homes value in something that will not pay for itself in a few years.

I have proposed many hydronic systems over the last decade and not one has been sold, I have sold systems that were nearly as costly but more conventional because the homeowner ultimately felt more comfortable with an SOP design, partially because everyone else told them my option was not viable.

As far as getting a commercial company to do the work, I have seen to many local debacles from comm. company forays into the residential field to be hopeful of an acceptable outcome.

Thanks for your well reasoned response.

Believe it or not, I do have experience in the Houston area. I worked for a multinational corp with offices in Houston and engineered a project there a few years back. It was design build and perfect for chilled water, however, the budget was already set and based on packaged RTUs when I came on board. The project required 6 large areas to be tempered only delivering 70 deg air with huge quantities of outside air 75% or better IN HOUSTON! RA temps would be over 87 deg F on a design day going to a package unit. I fought for chilled water, but the contractor wouldn't budge, the owner didn't understand the concern over the high RA temp, and since tempering was decided as a means to cut equipment size down thus reducing first cost I was stuck with it. I figured out a way to do it, but it would have been a piece of cake with chilled water.

That said, I have seen the resistance to chilled water in Houston first hand, so I can see your point.