New Trane S-Series CenTraVac

[KnewYork]

By the time this unit hits the market the oil free will be a thing of the past

Doubt it.

[aaron604]

Doubt it.

Youre right, I'm being sarcastic. Just pointing out that Trane seems to be taking forever to put out a modern machine is all.

[Tech Rob]

Their R&D does move at a glacial pace. I'd rather that than have them rush some P.O.S. to the market so they can say "Me too".

[aaron604]

I still get the feeling their equipment is engineered by 4 year old students from Nepal that are being told to "do math". I just don't have a lot of patience for machines that use loctite as gaskets and expect you to use a clear plastic hose to check refrigerant level in the evap.

[Tech Rob]

I think the simplicity of Trane's design is genius. Eventually, if you're around them enough, everything else begins to look like an over-engineered and over-controlled P.O.S. We all know, however, that there's at least one thing that every manufacturer got right with their machines that the other guys got wrong.

What do you have against using a clear hose to see where the refrigerant is at? You can use this method on almost any flooded chiller. It's especially useful if you just weighed the charge in and want to mark it for the future. Besides, it's only one of the things that we can use to determine charge levels. It's not like you're going to go straight to checking the level while ignoring the water temps, evap. approach, vane position, motor current, etc. Is it easier to hook up a clear hose or to recover and weigh the charge?

[milkyway]

You mean I can't just guess- I have used not the clear but the white straws from McDonald's-
Works great

But really , if their marked that is great!!

[Nuclrchiller]

I still get the feeling their equipment is engineered by 4 year old students from Nepal that are being told to "do math". I just don't have a lot of patience for machines that use loctite as gaskets and expect you to use a clear plastic hose to check refrigerant level in the evap.

With all due respect aaron604, instead of hijacking a thread, please start another one instead.

[TheChillerMan]

I still get the feeling their equipment is engineered by 4 year old students from Nepal that are being told to "do math". I just don't have a lot of patience for machines that use loctite as gaskets and expect you to use a clear plastic hose to check refrigerant level in the evap.

Aaron you sound like someone that wishes they worked for Trane. Or you're bitter and angry for some silly reason. Or you're just immature.

I've worked for Carrier and Trane so I have first hand knowledge about both companies. With that said, I will never leave Trane. But you don't see me on the internet bashing Carrier.

[TheChillerMan]

With all due respect aaron604, instead of hijacking a thread, please start another one instead.

I don't think Aaron is due any respect. He hasn't earned it.

[RichardL]

This "Was" a great and informative thread, until one chose to use the "If ya' can't beat em'...Bash em' mentality."
Each of us have our "Favorite" chiller manufacturer, but to blatantly and openly condemn "Any" of them for whatever reason on these hallowed pages disgusts this old sage. I have been accustomed to much wiser posts from our northern neighbors.

[FlashFusion]

Ouch Arron!

This is will interesting to see what happens in the future though, I believe this is the first oil free machine that Trane has developed, . The oil free seems to becoming more common in the centrifugal market, Trane needed and did come out with the oil free system to compete in the oil free market. And I love the small footprint !!!
Only available in the 200 to 400 ton range as of now.

Trane came out with oil free technology in 2002 and has units running in the marketplace. Trane was apparently ahead of their time and shelved it.

[FlashFusion]

This "Was" a great and informative thread, .

The post definitely has a lot of information, unfortunately, much of it is incorrect.

[Nuclrchiller]

The post definitely has a lot of information, unfortunately, much of it is incorrect.

Wecome, FlashFusion. This thread (I presume you meant "thread" and not "post") has had its share of facts, rumors, and assumptions. I have probably contributed to all three, myself. Please feel free to share. BTW, have you seen any of the earlier oil free Tranes? I have not, but I've heard they're out there.

[FlashFusion]

Wecome, FlashFusion. This thread (I presume you meant "thread" and not "post") has had its share of facts, rumors, and assumptions. I have probably contributed to all three, myself. Please feel free to share. BTW, have you seen any of the earlier oil free Tranes? I have not, but I've heard they're out there.

Yes thread, sorry. Yes, I have seen them and can tell you where 4 oil-free Trane units are running along with some additional details (yes, I do work for Trane and was part of the extended team that helped with the design of the oil-free chillers).

1) Hyatt regency in Washington DC. Installed in 2003 and has 8000 starts with 40,000 run hours.
2) North Lake College in Dallas, Tx. Installed in 2004 with 1800 starts and 30,000 run hours.
3) Carillion Medical Center in Roanoke, Va with 1,000 starts and 55,000 run hours.
4) The newest to the family at Angelo State University in San Angelo, Tx. Installed in 2011 with 300 starts and 4300 run hours.

The machines will be low pressure as they will be in the future as well. The term CenTraVac stand for Centrifugal (Cen) Trane (Tra) and Vacuum (Vac), so we will continue the heritage of providing low pressure machines.

The machines will not utilize 245fa as this is an HFC with a high global warming potential and GWP looks to be the next "target". As you may have just heard, TurboCor announced their next generation prototype compressor using R1234ze in lieu of R134a. This is an HFO refrigerant which is likely what refrigeration equipment will be using in the near future (with exception to products using natural refrigerants). Disclaimer, this is my opinion

The motors are Permanent magnet and do not have 500 pounds of magnetic pull that will yank a wrench out of your hand or for that matter, pull fixtures off of a wall.

It will be a direct drive, semi-hermetic, multistage machine like we have been perfecting for the last 75 years. Notably, other manufcatures new machines are using these technologies in their designs. York went semi-heretic and direct drive with the YMC2 as well as TuboCor including multi-stage.

Initial design goes up to ~400 tons

The design is not operating at what high speed is typically classified as. The design RPM is around 6000. Other high speed compressors using medium pressure refrigerants are designed upwards of 48,000 RPM.

The compressor design does have a feel of the "benchgrinder". Reason for that is reliability. The force of each impellor is opposing, thus creating a net 0 thrust on the bearing asseblies resulting in extreme life-expectancy.

There were some other questions regarding Mixed Flow... Centrifugal compression exists in an axial form such as a fan blowing large volumes of air, as well as a radial form such as centrifugal chillers that need to process less mass flow, but at a higher compression ratio. Then, you have somewhere "in-between" wich is a combination of radial and axial compression, hence "mixed-flow". This is the type of technology commononly used in turbines as it provide great reliability and stability at various operating conditions. being that we can speed the impellor up to 6000 RPM now, we can utilize the mixed flow. Without that speed increase, in order to meet the required compression, we would have had to have lots of mized flow impellors and very large ones.

There was also a question on specific speed. More on that later

Hope some of this helps.

[Nuclrchiller]

Very nice, informative post. Thanks. I look forward to asking more questions when I have more time....

[R123]

I can confirm what flash said but I wasn't part of the design team and haven't seen the chillers. I was hesitant on posting too much info. I thought the tonnage went up a little higher but I must have misunderstood that part.

[CCSPIERCE]

RichardL, Wouldn't it be neat to combine all of the good aspects from the 4 mfgs. I can see some really great things in all of them. This new Trane looks cool to me, as far as Loctite is concerned, none of them would work if Loctite went out of business. If you ask me none of the mfg. are "better" than the others. Pick the right machine in the right place with good design, Happy,Happy, Happy !!!

[Screwit]

No listing on the AHRI certification website as yet so suspect release for sale (including literature) is still pending

I retract this statement as is no longer true

[Patrick.hvac]

Thanks for the info flashfusion. I can't wait to get more info. I was just at the LaCrosse plant and nobody was talking about this. I could have got so much more info! It's good to see that Trane has a response to the modular market.

[summerhelp]

I got some info on that machine and I think it will be reliable its just a little wide in the a$$ to compete w/ mcquay and smardt you have to remove the drive to go through a 72" door