New HVAC house not cooling/warping wood inside/ducts sweating bad

[beenthere]

You take care of a museum too, eh? Guess the main difference is I do it full time.

Yea, and I have to make do with equipment that is residential, and not designed for the way they use it.
Makes it tough some times.

[Shophound]

Yea, and I have to make do with equipment that is residential, and not designed for the way they use it.
Makes it tough some times.

I think there must be some folks in this world who believe you can cool and control any indoor environment with a resi split system. I could only imagine 44 five ton split systems trying to do the job of one of my chillers and eight air handlers do 24/7/365. You couldn't stand to be in the place....the roar of 44 air handlers and 44 compressors outside would be unbearable. Not to mention curators constantly at my door while I fight a losing battle of hoping to control a gallery environment with DX, constant velocity air handlers.

My mechanicals are not the most ideal for a museum, but we manage decently. It would be laughable with residential split system equipment.

[beenthere]

Fortunately, its a small museum.
But its a challenge for humidity control.
Single stage equipment, and of course, size for worst case senerios.

[Kevin O'Neill]

For your crawlspace:

http://www.contractingbusiness.com/2...lse/7253/Issue


For your ducts sweating:

http://www.contractingbusiness.com/2...se/46151/Issue

Maybe Teddy Bear will visit with you too. It seems to me you need to encapsulate your crawlspace and seal your ducts first. I think installing a bigger unit would be a big mistake.

You also need someone to MEASURE your air flow when they set the fan speed. They can do that with a flow hood or test static pressure. Right now they are guessing, and that is no way to design a system.

[revin]

OK, here;s what I found out now.

No possable way the dist. will take the unit back.

He measured temp/humidty at 6:30 CST with digtal meter
T-stat reading 73*

Intake 48% with 73* on the loose fiber air filter

"On" Register downstairs 20 ft from intake 66% 58.6*
1ft above that same Register 56% 68*

Upstairs "on" register in bedroom 67% 54*

Outside on porch[eastside shaded 46% 78*

Please note where he took the readings, are they correct?

Now before he arrived I contacted an "online" store and the tech there are VERY helpful! They said thed love to sell me a unit, but want to make sure that what I really need.
After describlng the "symptoms, I gave them the measurements of duct.

Mixing chamber 18x22x35= 2000cfm capacity

Trunks are "full" size ie no reductions.

Trunk #1 Flush mount @ right angle from mixing box 16x8 with 5 6" holes =510cfm
Trunk #2 Flush mount @ but end of mixing box 16x8 10 6" holes =710cfm

Online tech Stated I need to run a pair of 6" or an 8" duct from trunk#1 to "balance" system for 1400cfm total flow.

This is what the installer sayed tonite:

Installer stated he dont do "model J", that the calcs are way too oversized many times, mainly from "R value" guessing.

Stated he wants to measure the ductwork so he can calculate what the flow rate is. {even though I told him I had all that right here for him, including some phone calculations for the flow} That were taken from a "Duct-A-lator"

"No I got to do that himself, see you the next Monday eve."

Now then he said he dont have a "flow" meter, that he can calculate that from the "duct" sizes.

Said that the "upstairs" is taking all the air since the duct is not "reduced" anywhere in trunk #2.

"Need to redu the entire duct, so that the "reductions" are in place to keep static pressure proper, [but dont have a flow meter?]

You also need someone to MEASURE your air flow when they set the fan speed. They can do that with a flow hood or test static pressure. Right now they are guessing, and that is no way to design a system.

What 'di miss???

[RoBoTeq]

OK, here;s what I found out now.

No possable way the dist. will take the unit back.

He measured temp/humidty at 6:30 CST with digtal meter
T-stat reading 73*

Intake 48% with 73* on the loose fiber air filter

"On" Reg downstairs 20 ft from intake 66% 58.6*
1ft above " " 56% 68*

Upstairs "on" reg 67% 54*

Outside on porch[eastside shaded 46% 78*

Please note where he took the readings, are they correct?

Now before he arrived I contacted an "online" store and the tech there are VERY helpful! They said thed love to sell me a unit, but want to make sure that what I really need.
After describlng the "symptoms, I gave them the measurements of duct.

Mixing chamber 18x22x35= 2000cfm capacity

Trunks are "full" size ie no reductions.

Trunk #1 Flush mount @ right angle from box 16x8 with 5 6" holes =510cfm
" #2 "" "" @ but end " "" [7dn]3up 10 6" holes =710cfm

Stated I need to run a pair of 6" or 1 8" duct from trunk#1 to "balance system for 1400cfm total flow.


Installer stated he dont do "model J", that the calcs are way too oversized many times, mainly from "R value" guessing.

Stated he wants to measure the ductwork so he can calculate what the flow rate is. {even though I told him I had all that right here for him, including some phone calculations for the flow}

"No I got to do that himself, see you the next Monday eve."

Now then he said he dont have a "flow" meter, that he can calculate that from the "duct" sizes.

Said that the "upstairs" is taking all the air since the duct is not "reduced" anywhere in trunk #2.

"Need to redu the entire duct, so that the "reductions" are in place to keep static pressure proper, [but dont have a flow meter?]


What 'di miss???

I'm sorry, but you have way too much wrong information being tossed around and way too much irrelevant data. You need to get an HVAC professional who knows what they are doing and STOP playing pseudo engineering games. There is not much data that you have posted that makes much sense. It's like reading notes from someone who is reading a technical manual but has no idea what it is they are reading.

DO WHAT I TOLD YOU TO DO MANY POSTS AGO! HAVE THE AIR FLOW ADJUSTED TO BELOW 1400 CFM AND THEN HAVE THE REFRIGERANT CHARGE PROPERLY ADJUSTED TO THE MANUFACTURER'S REQUIRED SUPERHEAT AND SUBCOOLING.

All you are doing is screwing your equipment up and putting a boatload of damaging moisture into your home. Stop it!

[infraredsurvey]

Have you had the building envelope checked?
sorry if this has been asked..

[beenthere]

Temp difference should be taken at unit.
Just measuring the size of the duct size won't tell him how much air its moving.

Its going to be a long road before you house is right.

Check teh phone book for NCI contractors to measure what your air flow really is. They should also be able to tell you what needs done to correct your system.

[Kevin O'Neill]

OK, here;s what I found out now.

No possable way the dist. will take the unit back.

He measured temp/humidty at 6:30 CST with digtal meter
T-stat reading 73*

Intake 48% with 73* on the loose fiber air filter

"On" Reg downstairs 20 ft from intake 66% 58.6*
1ft above " " 56% 68*

Upstairs "on" reg 67% 54*

Outside on porch[eastside shaded 46% 78*

Please note where he took the readings, are they correct?

Now before he arrived I contacted an "online" store and the tech there are VERY helpful! They said thed love to sell me a unit, but want to make sure that what I really need.
After describlng the "symptoms, I gave them the measurements of duct.

Mixing chamber 18x22x35= 2000cfm capacity

Trunks are "full" size ie no reductions.

Trunk #1 Flush mount @ right angle from box 16x8 with 5 6" holes =510cfm
" #2 "" "" @ but end " "" [7dn]3up 10 6" holes =710cfm

Stated I need to run a pair of 6" or 1 8" duct from trunk#1 to "balance system for 1400cfm total flow.


Installer stated he dont do "model J", that the calcs are way too oversized many times, mainly from "R value" guessing.

Stated he wants to measure the ductwork so he can calculate what the flow rate is. {even though I told him I had all that right here for him, including some phone calculations for the flow}

"No I got to do that himself, see you the next Monday eve."

Now then he said he dont have a "flow" meter, that he can calculate that from the "duct" sizes.

Said that the "upstairs" is taking all the air since the duct is not "reduced" anywhere in trunk #2.

"Need to redu the entire duct, so that the "reductions" are in place to keep static pressure proper, [but dont have a flow meter?]


What 'di miss???

Just about everything.

Another salesman guessing.

You need to MEASURE air flow. The amount of air flowing in a duct is determined by several things:
1) The size of the duct.
2) The pressure drop from the inlet to the outlet of the duct (developed by the fan).
3) The smoothness of the inside of the duct.
4) The number and type of fittings in the duct.
5) The number and size and type of registers and/or grilles.
6) The size and type of air filter(s).
7) The way the ducts connect to the fan.

etc.

By the way, it would be easier to understand you if you stopped abbreviating and used a spell checker. Then we could better understand you and answer you better.

[revin]

By the way, it would be easier to understand you if you stopped abbreviating and used a spell checker. Then we could better understand you and answer you better.

OK to start, I went back and unabbreviated the grammar from today. I'm sorry about that.

Second, I'm not doing any of the work myself[yet], thats what i PAID for to begin with.

It seems that he's wanting to correct the situation, so I need to give some time for that. With that being said, I'm now as during install with him to see just what is being done.

I'm trying to ask the questions, and raise my concerns about "all" the information that is thrown at me.

I'm sorry, but you have way too much wrong information being tossed around and way too much irrelevant data.

As from everyone? How am I to know what is right or wrong!

You need to get an HVAC professional who knows what they are doing and STOP playing pseudo engineering games.

He is supposed to be the "HVAC professional' with 30 yrs of experience! I paid him to do the work, not someone else.

There is not much data that you have posted that makes much sense. It's like reading notes from someone who is reading a technical manual but has no idea what it is they are reading.

As I stated, that is what "he did" tonight, and for what ever reason i don't know or care. I want a correctly working AC unit.

DO WHAT I TOLD YOU TO DO MANY POSTS AGO! HAVE THE AIR FLOW ADJUSTED TO BELOW 1400 CFM AND THEN HAVE THE REFRIGERANT CHARGE PROPERLY ADJUSTED TO THE MANUFACTURER'S REQUIRED SUPERHEAT AND SUBCOOLING.

Again, Stated he wants to measure the ductwork so he can calculate what the flow rate is.
{even though I told him I had all that measurement's right here for him, including some phone calculations for the flow} That were taken from a "Duct-A-lator"


All you are doing is screwing your equipment up and putting a boatload of damaging moisture into your home. Stop it!

I'm not doing crap except dealing with a 68% disability, trying to hold a job, and raise a 16mo grandson, and we still have a house that is hot even after spending ALOT of money to have a working HVAC!

Please don't be shouting at me, I'm the one that needs to shouting, since I don't have the money or a working unit! Thank you.

Just about everything.

Another salesman guessing.

You need to MEASURE air flow. The amount of air flowing in a duct is determined by several things:
1) The size of the duct.
2) The pressure drop from the inlet to the outlet of the duct (developed by the fan).
3) The smoothness of the inside of the duct.
4) The number and type of fittings in the duct.
5) The number and size and type of registers and/or grilles.
6) The size and type of air filter(s).
7) The way the ducts connect to the fan.

He already knows all that info.
I offered him the sizes of all the trunk's, and the mixing box and even told him how many 6" tubes were connected to each of the 2 trunks, so that he has all the info he wanted. Again, he don't have any of the specialized tools like a flow meter etc. that he should have after 30 yrs. on service!!!! God knows he could have paid for from my them job!

So again he is going to measure with a tape, the sizes of the stuff under here that I have already done for him!

Temp difference should be taken at unit.
Just measuring the size of the duct size won't tell him how much air its moving.

Well how is that going to help him with the duct sizing?

According to him, that's all he needs is to know "how big" the sizes of the box's and trunks are.

Its going to be a long road before you house is right.

Check teh phone book for NCI contractors to measure what your air flow really is. They should also be able to tell you what needs done to correct your system.

Any idea of what kind of cost that would be, if any? ie, is that not what I have already paid for??

Have you had the building envelope checked?
sorry if this has been asked..

No, but i do know that some leakage/infiltration is from the fireplace and some from the attic fan space.

You also need someone to MEASURE your air flow when they set the fan speed. They can do that with a flow hood or test static pressure. Right now they are guessing, and that is no way to design a system.

What will he be doing for that, so I'll know what to watch for him to do, or ask about him to do it a certain way? He told me he dont have a flow meter.

Now then, aside from my upper questions, what is the meaning of the "limited" temp and humidity readings that he did?
Are they normal?
What did it tell him?

All he said was "huh" about the mantle that is warped , and it's within 2 ft between 2 of the registers that blow up toward it, is there a connection?

[revin]

Now about the ductwork. He said that it's all wrong, because there are no reductions in any of the trunks, yes or no?

First thing is that when he said that "all the air is being shoved upstairs" because there is no reductions. Yes or no?

I can state this, it gets hot upstairs, so my wife will come unglued if anything is done to change the airflow up there, unless there is more!!

This is where I need to rely on his expertise, if that is what is needed to be done.

Now toss in the 4th tech [remember the 3rd tech gave a second opinion, said that the duct was pretty close to sized[from measuring] but unit was too small for "heat-load"]and goes along with the 4th's advise[based on using a "Duct-a- lator", about adding more outlets to the trunk that only had 5 runs off it to balance the overall system flow. Yes or no?

So lets add #5.
Suggest to have a return put in the ceiling of the 2 bedrooms, to help remove the "heat-load" back down to the system. Yes or no?

Anyone willing to do a manual J or whatever to see if it has any differance of opinion for the entire setup?

Thanks again,
Kevin

[RoBoTeq]

OK, just reread entire thread. Revin, you seem to be really stuck on thinking you need a larger system. If you cannot let go of that thought, there is nothing we can do. I do not for one instance believe you need a 4 ton system.

Now, we really cannot go any further without knowing what equipment you have installed. We need to know what you are dealing with rather then your telling us what your contractor and you think are the problems. What is the model and serial numbers of every component now installed in your home?

You have excessive moisture in your home. That is what is preventing the system from cooling properly and what is causing the system to run constantly. Your system is working overtime to attempt to remove moisture from the air in your home. A cooling system is a big dehumidifier. As long as there is excessive moisture in the air, a cooling system will put most of it's effort into removing that moisture. A system cannot cool properly if it has to deal with removing excessive moisture.

Let's get the equipment information as soon as possible. No other data until we get the equipment information, please.

[markwolf]

OK, just reread entire thread. Revin, you seem to be really stuck on thinking you need a larger system. If you cannot let go of that thought, there is nothing we can do. I do not for one instance believe you need a 4 ton system.

Now, we really cannot go any further without knowing what equipment you have installed. We need to know what you are dealing with rather then your telling us what your contractor and you think are the problems. What is the model and serial numbers of every component now installed in your home?

You have excessive moisture in your home. That is what is preventing the system from cooling properly and what is causing the system to run constantly. Your system is working overtime to attempt to remove moisture from the air in your home. A cooling system is a big dehumidifier. As long as there is excessive moisture in the air, a cooling system will put most of it's effort into removing that moisture. A system cannot cool properly if it has to deal with removing excessive moisture.

Let's get the equipment information as soon as possible. No other data until we get the equipment information, please.

Thanks! I was just coming back to correct his train of thought myself.
I asked a question pertaining to building envelope & he asumed I was hinting at a larger system which I DOUBT highly is needed& would likely make his problems worse if anything.

[revin]

Well again i apologize, I thought I listed the spec's before.
I was reluctant beginning because of brand bashing.

TBH, I still have not had any questions answered, and I dont want to get a bashing about what brand of equipment I have.

I have stated that it's a 3.5 ton, and has a blower "overrated to handle a 5 ton capacity, and that I have a hard to cool home of 1750-1850 sf, so hoped that was enough to help ME, get an idea of what wrong now, and understand why it's acting the way it is.

I dont have the money anymore to replace the system, but we can't afford to live in here if were back in the same boat as before, and still out money.

All I seem to understand is what it seems that a simple duct mod may help fix the problem, and not ripping out the entire ductwork and rebuilding it.

I DONT have a clue................................... that's why i;m here, to get an understanding and another idea of what I need to observe.request to get my system functioning "better than before".

Thank you again!!!!!

Goodman
GMH81155CN
CHPF3642C6
GSC130421

[beenthere]

Measuring air temp across coil won't tell him if ductwork is sized right or not. But will tell him some info about air flow.

A ductulator only tells you friction loss, not if the duct is actually sized right.

Yes, another company (thats NCI certified will cost money)

[Kevin O'Neill]

Well again i apologize, I thought I listed the spec's before.
I was reluctant beginning because of brand bashing.

TBH, I still have not had any questions answered, and I dont want to get a bashing about what brand of equipment I have.

I have stated that it's a 3.5 ton, and has a blower "overrated to handle a 5 ton capacity, and that I have a hard to cool home of 1750-1850 sf, so hoped that was enough to help ME, get an idea of what wrong now, and understand why it's acting the way it is.

I dont have the money anymore to replace the system, but we can't afford to live in here if were back in the same boat as before, and still out money.

All I seem to understand is what it seems that a simple duct mod may help fix the problem, and not ripping out the entire ductwork and rebuilding it.

I DONT have a clue................................... that's why i;m here, to get an understanding and another idea of what I need to observe.request to get my system functioning "better than before".

Thank you again!!!!!

Goodman
GMH81155CN
CHPF3642C6
GSC130421

He can use a $150.00 manometer to measure static pressure. That coupled with blower charts from Goodman, will tell him overall air flow. He does not have to buy a $2,000.00 flow hood right now. The ductulator will NOT tell him how much air flow there is.

[Kevin O'Neill]

Sometimes the distributor has a service rep to help the contractor on trouble jobs. Usually the service rep has better diagnostic tools than the contractor, which is sad, but maybe he could help you. The service rep likely knows how to do a manual J load calculation too. Good luck.

[revin]

I understand that the ductalator is only for telling what a given size of duct will allow x amount of air flow

That's kinda where I want to understand now if just makeing the current duct allow "1400" cfm that I keep seeing about.

Is that an easy way to help, as suggested to allow another xx amount of air unload from the trunk that has the lesser amount of air passing thru now? To equal the "1400" cfm?.

[beenthere]

No, you don't really understand.

The ductulator only tells you the friction loss for that amount of air, per 100 foot of equivilent length.

On 2 different systems, moving the same amount of air. One may need 20x8 for 800 CFM, the other may need 24x8 for 800 CFM.

On a text book install. You still have to measure static pressure to see if your design is allowing the air flow you designed for.
A ductulator will never tell you that.

[air311]

I'm sorry, but you have way too much wrong information being tossed around and way too much irrelevant data. You need to get an HVAC professional who knows what they are doing and STOP playing pseudo engineering games. There is not much data that you have posted that makes much sense. It's like reading notes from someone who is reading a technical manual but has no idea what it is they are reading.

DO WHAT I TOLD YOU TO DO MANY POSTS AGO! HAVE THE AIR FLOW ADJUSTED TO BELOW 1400 CFM AND THEN HAVE THE REFRIGERANT CHARGE PROPERLY ADJUSTED TO THE MANUFACTURER'S REQUIRED SUPERHEAT AND SUBCOOLING.

All you are doing is screwing your equipment up and putting a boatload of damaging moisture into your home. Stop it!

And button up that house! It's hard not to get frustrated at a call when people complain that properly installed equipment isn't running right, when their house has more air leaks than a treehouse. That should have been your first priority.