Regular Guest
The attached pictures are of the community return duct and filter box, installed in a new house last August.
The filter box is 20X25, and I use 5" MERV 16 filters.
From an airflow perspective, the widening of the duct above the filter, and abrupt narrowing after, seems incorrect. Specifically, the manufacturer of the filter box specifies a maximum angle of 20 degrees downstream of the filter, and this sheet metal far exceeds that. The other issues are that the duct the filter box is in is much smaller than the return trunk above it, and the fact that there are no turning vanes in the duct where it makes the 90 degree turn to the blower inlet.
I would propose that, for starters, this sheet metel should be replaced with a straight 20X25 duct all the way up to the return trunk, and that turning vanes be installed at to ninety to the furnace. I'd appreciate any thoughts.
Professional Member*
Actually, from what I see, it looks like a very nice set up. The radius elbow is great. No need for turning vanes. I really like the filter in that configuration. Much better than slapped on the side as most do. There was a lot more work in doing it the way they did.
I saw an earlier post where you stated you were unhappy with the workmanship on your home's HVAC. It looks like they make their own ductwork. They must have some pride in what the do.
Professional Member*
I agree that job looks really very nice.
However depending on how much airflow the furnace a/c is required it may or may not be slightly restrictive.
What you propose to do would improve the air flow especially if you built a stand to let the bottom of furnace return as well instead of single sided entry.
Oh and merv 16 is really restrictive hope you change it often.
God Speed, Jim. We'll miss you - 2-26-23
The return drop could be better.
What size furnace and A/C.
Regular Guest
"The return drop could be better."
That was part of my point: the trunk is 28" wide, and the drop is 14X25 (turned so that the drop is 14 inches mated to the trunk's 28 inch dimension).
"What size furnace and A/C."
Here is the whole setup:
XC16-048
EL296UH090XV48C
Harmony III, three dampers, three zones, one per floor (basement is conditioned space with its own thermostat)
3 Comfortsense 7000 thermostats, one per floor/zone
HCWP3-18 humidifier
Lennox Healthy Climate filter box with 5" MERV 16 filter
What I consider poor quality ductwork (leaky and restrictive in all the wrong places) with building cavities used as returns.
All of this is new equipment installed last August.
Is it the right size? Who knows--there's no evidence the installer ever did manual J or D calculations.
I use Lennox X6675 Carbon Clean HCF20-16 MERV 16 filters. The manufacturer recommends replacing them yearly, but I replace them at the beginning of each quarter. Which should tell you something about where I sit on the IAQ versus cost spectrum. Downstream of the filter, the manufacturer specifies a maximum narrowing of 20 degrees, or no more than around 4 inches per linear foot. This installation is about double that. I know what you're thinking, what does some PE with a fancy calculator know about airflow in the real world--still, one has to wonder why, if you're going to go to all this trouble, why not build the drop at the 20X25 dimension of the filter box all the way up and down? That, to me, doesn't show attention to detail, it shows a desire to cut corners on sheet metal (no pun intended).
As I wrote elsewhere, I have lots of other issues with the system. If you zoom in on the pictures you may notice the unsecured wires going to the humidifier and humidistat. That's where I had to build my own circuit to get the humidifier to operate--after two attempts, the installer hadn't gotten it ever to come on (and wasn't going to, the way he wired it) and I really didn't want them back in my house. I'll try to secure the wires this afternoon--as you might guess, I have lots of other demands on my time and this wasn't how I imagined spending weekends in my new house.
This is really better discussed in the other thread I started, but all of the ductwork, especially the panned joists for returns, are leaky. I've been sealing them myself, working my way out from the furnace and paying a lot of attention to the boots in the first floor, which were all left with holes you could drop a pen through to the basement. I have concerns about a long list of other things which may or may not be correctable at any kind of sensible cost, like the upstairs supply trunk running vertically through the garage; and the zone 2 thermostat being located in the upstairs hallway, far from the nearest supply or return, and subject to complete isolation from conditioned air if all the bedroom doors are closed. And so on.
I don't want to come off sounding like an overly picky homeowner. I wanted a top quality system (which for me, begins with ductwork) and I was happy to pay a fair price for craftsmanship. I don't think "craftsmanship" is the adjective that comes to mind when I look at this system. Hopefully, this conversation will be helpful in locating a detail oriented HVAC professional in my area who doesn't mind working over someone else's messes. In the situation I found myself, I was stuck with an installer who didn't answer to me, and whom I couldn't replace, and whose outrageous markups on equipment I was stuck with. (He tried to be as opaque as possible but you know, equipment costs to dealers aren't really a mystery these days). Either way, I really do appreciate the comments.
Regular Guest
You might have also noticed the large sheet metal patch just above the filter box. That patch is my work too. That was the installer's idea of where to put the single return for the basement (zone 3). When that was open, with a register over it, the return airflow from the top two floors was pretty much zero. As you might imagine.
At least I had the foresight to put a ton of 4 foot flourescents by the equipment so I can see what I'm doing. Be even happier if it were a professional making use of the lighting, though.
Regular Guest
I'm asking these questions because I'm genuinely interested in your opinions. So I appreciate all responses.
To help with your assessment of the ductwork, I'm sure pictures are always helpful. The following are a typical floor boot the way the installer left it, and one after I sealed it up. The first one I did took me about two hours, using metal tape and zero VOC clear sealant. Fortunately, I'm getting faster.
Also, just for fun, I attached two pictures of floor registers. Before is how it came and after is modified my removing the register damper and actuator, and sealing and insulating the edges so it fits tightly in a sealed boot. The registers of course are not the point of this discussion.
As a point of information, the basement (zone 3) is OFF at its thermostat. The furnace is in the basement. With the fairly small amount of sealing I've done, the basement temperature has dropped by three degrees (at the same outside air temperature).
All comments on ductwork are appreciated but here's a specific question: what do you think of using building cavities for return ducts?
Professional Member*
Using building cavities for returns is old school and not good. I do blower door tests and the worst leakage duct systems are panned returns or building cavity chases used for return air. I'm pretty sure it's against code to use building cavities for ducting.Originally Posted by homeownerjim
Regular Guest
It ought to be against code, that's for sure. I think it's permitted in my part of Pennsylvania, but I'll find out for sure. I was dismayed when I saw what they'd done but as I explained earlier, I was stuck.
I'm trying to get an audit done so I can find out exactly how bad the leakage is. And manual J calculations, which I don't believe were ever done. The question becomes what can reasonably be done to improve the return air leakage.
You guys that are pros at this, I think this conversation is maybe of interest. I'm someone that wanted the best HVAC system and IAQ I could get, and was perfectly willing to pay a fair price for quality work. Instead I got the same old junk from someone who really wasn't interested in finding out what I wanted and providing it for a profit. Typical of the conversations I had with this installer: I pointed out once that the insulation on the suction line had fallen off. He made a face and told me that that was "just there so the line won't sweat." Grudgingly, he agreed to take five minutes to secure a new piece of insulation with six zip ties.
To put it mildly, I didn't appreciate being treated like an idiot. Doesn't it make more sense to do quality work at a fair price? Again, I'm asking because I'm genuinely interested.
Professional Member*
Yes that's how you stay in buisiness by producing quality work for your customers who then tell their friends and family and so on. I'm assuming this was new construction or major gut remodel? If so I can't believe any municipality would pass using building cavities as return air duct. A blower door test and duct leakage test would be your best 1st action to see just how bad the leakage is in the duct as well as the structure. Once you know how much is leaking and where the leaks are you can come up with a game plan to seal it up if its sized properly. If the duct is not adequately sized and leaks badly you may need to open some walls back up and figure out how to run new, properly sized and sealed ductwork. Check out these sites for contractors and info www.comfortinstitute.org www.bpi.org and [url]www.resnet.us as well as the contractor locator on this site.
Regular Guest
New construction, finished in August 2012. Using building cavities as ducts is anyway contrary to the best practices in the EPA's Indoor airPLUS Construction Specifications. This is not a half-million dollar house we're talking about either. I get that most people, even at our price point, won't know or care about the difference as long as they have some cool air in the summer and some heat in the winter. But still...where's the pride in your work, when you're working in seven figure properties?
No luck on the contractor locator. Maybe beenthere will offer to drive down from Lancaster and take a look.
I've got a couple RESNET auditors working up proposals for energy audits. Thanks for the other links, I hadn't seen them before.
I mentioned the ripoffl level markup on the equipment I wanted? When I told the installer what his price was going to be for the equipment I wanted, he justified his massive markup by telling me "times had been hard" for him. Not the way to win friends and influence people.
The way the returns are run, ripping the house apart really isn't going to be an option, I don't think. If I did that, I would also do the dedicated HRV ductwork that I wanted, but wasn't about to order from this installer. I wonder if there is any way to do aerosol sealing in returns...at least I was able to get the humidifier online, so I have that going for me.
Thanks again.
Professional Member*
Aireoseal will work as long as the leaks are small enough first need to test to see if there is enough leakage to constitute the expense of aero seal or if that money would be better spent elsewhere for possible larger problems.
Global Moderator
This is TOTALLY incorrect.
you have to radius the inner bend on a 90 to have ANY effect on airflow. without it, turning vanes are still needed...
radiusing the outer bend only saves metal costs...
The TRUE highest cost system is the system not installed properly...
Find a HVAC-Talk Contractor by clicking here
Click below to BECOME a pro member
https://hvac-talk.com/vbb/forumdispl...ip-Information
Do you go to a boat repairman with a sinking boat, and tell him to put in a bigger motor when he tells you to fix the holes?
I am yourmrfixit
Regular Guest
Seems to be a professional difference of opinion on this point.
I'm not an engineer but I think I have a basic understanding of fluid flow. If I were building the return drop in its present location, I would have made it the full 20X25 size of the filter box all the way up. and included turning vanes.
With the overall leakage of the panned joists, I'm not sure if this would just be perfuming the pig, though.
Thank you for any more thoughts.
God Speed, Jim. We'll miss you - 2-26-23
The radiused heel helps. But since the throat isn't radiused its still a bit restrictive to good air flow. And vanes would help it a lot.
Regular Guest
My question on aero sealing of return ducts is, how do you keep the material out of the blower? Do you have to disassemble the ducts enough so that you can use a different fan to depressurize the returns? Also, I presume, but don't know for sure, that there are aero sealants available that are green, meaning zero VOC for starters?
By the way, the supply ducts are plenty leaky too. At least they are sheet metal instead of ductboard stapled between joists--so I've been going around sealing everything that could be a leak, working my way out from the furnace (the point of highest pressure).
Earlier I mentioned I need manual J calculations to be run because I don't believe they ever were. What I meant to say was that I need manual J and manual D calculations. It looks wrong to me, for example, to have the same CFM supplied to an interior master bedroom closet as there is to an exterior 13X13 bedroom. Proof is in the pudding: the closets were three degrees above the zone setpoint and the bedroom was four degrees below--until I shut off the air to the closets, which increased the bedroom airflow from about 65 CFM to about 90.
This is not work that a professional who cares about his work, and his referrals, should force a homeowner to undertake. In my humble opinion.
Regular Guest
Beenthere, you're just up the road. Know anyone good in West Chester, or do you care to drive over sometime?
God Speed, Jim. We'll miss you - 2-26-23
I don't go east that far.
My email address is in my profile. I might know a company or 2 that go that far for duct work changes only(some won't if they can't sell equipment also). That can help you.
Professional Member*
New construction is very "cut throat" especially in a tract home situation. Every corner is cut to keep costs low because the builder tries to keep costs low, ductwork usually suffers to keep costs low as well as inexperienced installers to keep labor cost low. If it was a custom built home then the hvac sub should have met with you and the builder and given you options and gotten input from you about how important certain things such as IAQ, humidity etc is to you and your family. A good duct system installed per manual D would have balancing dampers at each branch line on the trunk line that would be balanced and set when installed to match the heat gain/loss calculated by manual J of the room.
Professional Member*
Maybe in a perfect world. I'm not saying this is correct or right, but (almost) no one in my area (of maybe 350,000 people) get a radius elbow. They're lucky if they get a
25"x 16" filter. Most will use the boughten 20"x 16" boot/drop. Turning vanes..........Right!! Not even on EAC do they use turning vanes.
Why do the geothermal systems ask for a radius heel, but not the throat.........just curious?
Posting Permissions
Reply