ReplyPlease dont post another link to what PSIA means.
Jayguy, thanks. great responce. very professional. enough said.
Professional Member
the 'Atmospheric Pressure' issue is one that sticks in my craw. if 'Atmospheric Pressure' never changes, then why did Trane put in an adjustable value?
i will tell you why...by the way, it should ALWAYS be set for 14.7 psia or 14.696 psia for us anal-retentive nerds.
here is the deal, the 'Atmospheric Pressure' (AP) changes based on your altitude above or below sea level. the higher the altitude, the lower your atmospheric air pressure.
the way that Trane uses this value is to change the pressure displayed on the screen. Trane takes the saturated refrigerant temperature, converts it to pressure (just like on your PT chart) and then 'corrects' it to your AP. so it seems to make sense that you would adjust your chillers AP setting to your particular AP.
however, if you take a tank of refrigerant (that has liquid and vapor in it) to the top of a mountain or to the bottom of the sea, the saturated refrigerant temperature and saturated refrigerant pressure ALWAYS remains the same. if the refrigerant temperature (inside the can) is 40F, then the pressure for R11 is 7.0 psia no matter where on Earth or the Moon you are because it is a sealed system.
your chiller is also a sealed system, so the pressure and temperature relationship is still the same no matter what your AP is. if you want your displayed pressures to match the refrigerant that you have, you need to set the AP setting to 14.7 psia.
as for whether this is a stupid question/answer or not, i do not believe that it is a stupid question because Trane attempted to confuse the planet with this setting (smells like some national salesman had something to do with it). the only thing that this setting will do is give you wrong info if it is set incorrectly, however, the info can be made to match your $12.35 manifold gage set from Menards, because we all know how accurate THOSE things are!
"Right" is not the same as "Wise".
Don't step on my favorite part of the Constitution just to point out your favorite part.
Just because you can measure it, doesn't mean it is important. Just because you can't measure it, doesn't mean it isn't important.
Professional Member
Please dont post another link to what PSIA means.
Jayguy, thanks. great responce. very professional. enough said.
Professional Member
What do you mean by panels fried?
It seems a bit odd that all these electrical devices are burning up.
Professional Member*
I don't think this is your problem. This is an informational warning and has no effect on the operation or protection of the chiller (that is what "loss of flow" or "flow overdue" is for), unless there is an actual low flow condition. To disable this diagnostic function requires a laptop with Trane proprietary software. In other words, a Trane tech. I'm curious, when you say "experts" have looked at it, do you mean Trane techs? They must be involved to properly commission/startup this panel. There is much information and settings that are unique to each chiller that are required to be input, and that laptop with Trane's software is absolutely needed.Originally Posted by dlove
Professional Member*
Agreed. Where is panel powered from? I would expect control power transformer in the starter, but have seen otherwise.
Professional Member
That's the million dollar question, why did these burn up? not sure, trying to gather up what information i can.
But you would think after the original one went, and the second one went there would have been more trouble shooting done. I hope to have answer soon
I believe the original panel was a UCP1 CenTraVac Panel trying to get more info on old panel.
When i say i think everything points to the new panel, what I'm saying is, if the new panel wasn't set up property this could be a contributing factor.
As for flows, I understand what you saying. But from the alarm history and what I know about the loss of freon, water flow, and surging ect...and not having proper settings, all these combined, made for failure. Prior to the new panel being installed the unit sat for several weeks, my assumption is it got air bound. Some questions I have are, was the purge running correctly, should the service techs pulled a vacuum prior to start up? Not sure of the steps they took prior to start up. Working on getting those answers
That's why I asked about the motor cooling. It would appear the chiller ran for a short time after reset. Depending on pressures, water temps and flows what would prevent the motor to get proper cooling for it to overheat? Way at the bottom it does show a motor temp alarm early on, then it doesn't appear again until the failure?
I know there are many factors; I’m not looking for concrete answers. Just thoughts, and a few hypotheses. everyone is doing great!
Professional Member*
How are the motor windings on this machine cooled? Via refrigerant? If so I'd be looking at the low charge perhaps contributing to the problem. Any record of discharge superheat taken?
Surging is murder on a chiller comp and motor. What were the causes behind low chilled water flow?
Psychrometrics: the very foundation of HVAC. A comfort troubleshooter's best friend.
Professional Member
Here what i have been told from the vendor who installed the new panel.
The panel comes from the Trane factory designed and programmed for the particular chiller on which it is placed. So, all the programming was in place and was pre-configured.
Professional Member
On that I will have to disagree.
I have installed quite a few Adaptiview upgrades and there is field programming to be done.
I will agree that the panel comes for your particular application.
Your motor cooling could be as simple as plugged orfice on motor cooler line.
Professional Member*
Yeah, I've never heard of that either. I'm not saying it is impossible to do it. It would at the very least involve some off site building of the entire control package and then programming it, and then ensuring all pre-bound, or pre-labled devices are installed in their correct locations. The possibility of error is so high I would not try it. Even if this was done, without a laptop (with Trane's software) used to start it and verify proper operation, it was not properly commissioned, which in my opinion means it was not properly installed. Of course, this my opinion which is based on what I've read here, which I still think is not all the story.
Professional Member*
Does this mean the installer is not Trane Service? If so, was Trane at least involved in commissioning the panel after it was installed? Also, see my last post.
Professional Member
The motor went bad because there was less than 1 psi of difference between the evap pressure and the condenser press. The motor was not being cooled by refrigerant liquid, and the controls did not see the motor heating up because of what I would assume to be an improperly installed panel. You need to investigate the motor sensors, and if they are wired into the panel correctly. Then in the future, add tower controls to regulate the water temperature so that there will be the correct amount of refrigerant flow to the motor..
Professional Member
Loss of comm with all three motor temp sensors points to a failed LLID. I had a burn out on a motor that sent high voltage back to the LLID on the sensor wire and fried the LLID. That diag. is labeled remote reset so maybe not so serious in Trane's view. What failed first the sensor or the motor?
Professional Member
I like what Nuclrchiller said in his first post, which i saw myself and had the same thought.
First thing I see is the "motor winding temperature sensor" diagnostics. Under UC800 it shows that for "Motor Temperature Protection Type", "75 Ohm RTDs" was selected, but under "Motor Report" there is a blank reading for all 3 "Motor Winding Temp" readings.
So the question is. If we don't show actual winding temps, What temp would the 75 Ohm RTDs Motor Temperature Protection cut out on, at 200degs 500degs?
But the high temp eventually did cut it off, because we did receive a latched alarm. several times.
But i also agree with Spinning wheel, i hope to find out what the pressures, and water temps were during the last few hours it was running. If may be pressures were all out of whack, the Freon may have not been able to flow correctly. I have been told the purge count was high so from that we had air in the system.
It is possible like Triggerhappy said, a plugged office or something preventing flow.
Professional Member
Cut out is 265F. Your diag. is not for high temp. but for loss of comm. hence the dashes for motor temp. readings. The UC800 can't see the winding temps. I don't agree this unit tripped on high motor temp. Get someone qualified to open the data log.
Professional Member
With all due respect to everyone in this thread...
This is not a DIY forum and I see a lot of information being given that is most likely getting a tech tossed under a bus.
I for one cringe at the thought of a customer that has been 'schooled' on something he has no idea about then second guessing me on a tough project.
The original poster needs to apply for professional status if he wants to understand the ins and outs on a specific piece of machinery.
This is obviously my opinion and opinions are like a$$holes. Take it as you see it.
UA LU189
Professional Member
Thanks deltap, I'm working on getting the data log
Professional Member*
Your original three questions have been answered, again and again. You are wasting time, and risking further equipment damage, by attempting to diagnose the problem(s) over the internet. You should get someone qualified on site to resolve this. It also does not help that you appear to answer questions selectively.
Professional Member
Yes you have answered my questions and thanks for that.
I thought this was a open forum, discussing ideas? I do plan to have a Trane rep work on the issues. I would be crazy not to.
My goal was to gather ideas to help steer me in the right direction, and everyone"s advice helped. But don't think for a minute i would take all this to the bank and from all this I'm now a chiller tech.. we all have our limits in what we know. Every now and then we need advice.
Professional Member
You are not looking for generic ideas, you are in a very grey area looking for specific troubleshooting help.
What is your job title?
Why have you come here looking for answers?
Why have you not yet hired a contractor?
You have made it very clear that you don't understand this machine, what exactly are you looking to gain here?
You see, when I see someone asking "What should my set points be for this 500 ton chiller" I get very concerned as to who is asking and why they are asking.
Maintance men need to keep their booger hooks off the buttons... If you catch my drift.
UA LU189
Posting Permissions
