Installer Blues

[skwsproul]

Installer Blues

Here is a situation that frustrates any controls or service technician.

7:30am: Receive device to be installed having never seen job site or equipment. I gave 8 hours as an example.
8:30am: Arrive at job site to review project. Oops have to run conduit, sensor wires, make mounting brackets and etcetera.
Make list of necessary materials and call back to dispatch to find closest supply store.
9:30am: Arrive at local supply store in hopes that they carry all material needed. Gather materials after rummaging through unfamiliar store and head back to job site. Ok lucky here got all of the necessary materials, as you know this almost never works this way. Usually need to make multiple trips to multiple vendors.
10:30am-12:00pm: Back to job site to begin installation. Notice 4.5 hours of the 8 used and only 1.5 actually applied to installing and again this is being nice if you consider that chances are the time used to get materials was for a part of the job that was not included in the 8 hours.
12:00pm-12: 30pm: Lunch, Ill be nice and say lunch is in the van but bologna and chips sure gets old.
12:30pm-4:00pm: Installation not complete. Time is up, and now I am over on labor. I still have half a days worth of work.

In actuality most of the 8 hour projects like this end up being 16 hour or more projects. The solution to this is to NEVER send a technician to install something without having them review the project first hand, unless you are know exactly what the installation process will entail and have all of the necessary supplies ready. Even then be sure to thoroughly review your plan of attack and if the installer has questions you cannot answer, than you need to accept the fact that your project is going to go over.

Feel free to post comments/suggestions.

[John Culpepper]

I think you are correct in what you are saying. In fact the Furnace, Condenser, dehumidifier what ever was ordered by someone else. If they had taken the time when they bid the job to order materials as well this wouldn't be an issue. I oversee some projects at my building and when I get a bid that just says "time and materials" I wad it up and throw it in the waste basket. Outfits that are serious about what they do and the image their company reflects will walk through and actually price out what is needed and labor needed and give me a solid bid that when I shake their hand I am comfortable with.

[skwsproul]

I think you are correct in what you are saying. In fact the Furnace, Condenser, dehumidifier what ever was ordered by someone else. If they had taken the time when they bid the job to order materials as well this wouldn't be an issue. I oversee some projects at my building and when I get a bid that just says "time and materials" I wad it up and throw it in the waste basket. Outfits that are serious about what they do and the image their company reflects will walk through and actually price out what is needed and labor needed and give me a solid bid that when I shake their hand I am comfortable with.

Time and material bids are blind guesses unforeseen problems should be rectified as they arrive. Contractors have to be carefull to cover unforseens in their quote. Example: "Quote assumes associated components are in good working order." I use this one sometimes you cant tell what is behind the curtain until it is open. Usualy my issues are with controlers such as VFD's and PLC's. Thanks for your comments

[dec]

Ya I would have to say there is a problem if someone had made a detailed bid and that there wasnt a material list stapled to the shop copy of the bid.

Spending time having someone that has never seen the job and have to go back and figure out what the estimator should have done in the first place is a waste of time by the estimator.... take it out of his comission. He will do it right next time

Not sure its estimated time was out of a flat rate book , but it sounds like hours being under estimate would go back to estimator ......take it out of his commission....... he will bid it right next time

This sounds like a problem of estimating a realistic time to get a project done. Now I can see it on a new piece of equipment that has never been done being you may not have realized the equipment was in small pieces like an erector set. I have ran into that and in that case there is a learning curve that may bite you that first time.

Now if its a case of someone that is kinda slow .....well esimator should know that in advance. ITs his own fault , if that installer is the one that was going to be sent out ...... the offfice knew it would not be done in the alloted time.

I guess its one of those things that the esimator and installers need to set down and see where the problem is between estimating and install time.

I can get all the jobs I want estimating jobs ....... if I dont care wether there profitable

[skwsproul]

Spending time having someone that that has never seen the job and have to go back and figure out what the estimator should have done in the first place is a waste of time buy the estimator.... take it out of his comission. He will do it right next time

Not sure it estimated time was out of a flat rate book , but it sounds like hours being under estimate would go back to estimator ......take it out of his commission....... he will bid it right next time

I agree and it should go both ways. If the estimator is to be held responsible for mistakes at their end than the installer should be held responsible at their end. Unfortunately it usually falls on the installer or lead person on said job due to the fact that the estimator is usualy asked first and oh no there was plenty of time to get that done. The problem lies in the fact you can not email me the pictures in your head. Thanks I appreciate your comments.

[John Culpepper]

Time and material bids are blind guesses unforeseen problems should be rectified as they arrive. Contractors have to be carefull to cover unforseens in their quote. Example: "Quote assumes associated components are in good working order." I use this one sometimes you cant tell what is behind the curtain until it is open. Usualy my issues are with controlers such as VFD's and PLC's. Thanks for your comments

I know that there things that are uncontrollible and that is when hand shake deals are done. I would not hold a contractor remiss in his bid if he found something out of the ordinary.

[bja105]

8:00 Stagger in, only 30 minutes late, load job
8:30 Get gas. Van needed it yesterday, but it was happy hour
9:00 get to job, tattoos and sleeveless t-shirt make a big impression on someone's Grandmother
9:30 Make duct drawing and parts list on installation instructions, send them back to shop, never to be seen again
9:45-2:30 HAlf assed installation as usual
2:30:00-2:30:07 Clean up
3:00 Buy cigarettes and iced tea at gas station while NOT getting gas
3:30-4:00 Hang out at time clock, waiting to punch out
4:01 Go to bar to drink, smoke, and ***** about being poor

10:00 No heat call to service department. Installation instructions and installer nowhere to be found.

[Hrdworkingacguy]

In the situation the OP talks about I would be looking to the person who bid/sold the job that said it was 8 hours and gave you nothing to go on...You can't possibly go to a job with 1/10 of the materials and a set time limit...If the job requires legitimately 8 hours of actual on site labor to do the job and whoever didn't tell you what to expect and what you would need thats on them if it runs over...

I remember once having to change 16 bearings on 21500cfm evap coolers it took forever to get the bearings off, clean up the shaft, find the right parts, replace what was broken, clean and re-coat the pan of the cooler, install the pumps, wait for the paint to dry, fill the cooler, change the pads, replace the bad panels...it wound up being like 6 hours per cooler and they figured it would be like 1 - 1 1/2 days total...It wound up taking a week...All I heard was how we lost so much money, the job was a waste...

Bottom line is don't work for someone that doesn't know what they are doing...

Installer Blues
In actuality most of the 8 hour projects like this end up being 16 hour or more projects. The solution to this is to NEVER send a technician to install something without having them review the project first hand, unless you are know exactly what the installation process will entail and have all of the necessary supplies ready.

Its a riot how companies never have the 1/2 hour or hour to send someone to look over a job but they sure have the same amount of time available to bring you in there office to ***** you out for not getting it done on time...

[viceman]

8:00 Stagger in, only 30 minutes late, load job
8:30 Get gas. Van needed it yesterday, but it was happy hour
9:00 get to job, tattoos and sleeveless t-shirt make a big impression on someone's Grandmother
9:30 Make duct drawing and parts list on installation instructions, send them back to shop, never to be seen again
9:45-2:30 HAlf assed installation as usual
2:30:00-2:30:07 Clean up
3:00 Buy cigarettes and iced tea at gas station while NOT getting gas
3:30-4:00 Hang out at time clock, waiting to punch out
4:01 Go to bar to drink, smoke, and ***** about being poor

10:00 No heat call to service department. Installation instructions and installer nowhere to be found.

[hvamimi]

8:00 Stagger in, only 30 minutes late, load job
8:30 Get gas. Van needed it yesterday, but it was happy hour
9:00 get to job, tattoos and sleeveless t-shirt make a big impression on someone's Grandmother
9:30 Make duct drawing and parts list on installation instructions, send them back to shop, never to be seen again
9:45-2:30 HAlf assed installation as usual
2:30:00-2:30:07 Clean up
3:00 Buy cigarettes and iced tea at gas station while NOT getting gas
3:30-4:00 Hang out at time clock, waiting to punch out
4:01 Go to bar to drink, smoke, and ***** about being poor

10:00 No heat call to service department. Installation instructions and installer nowhere to be found.

Typical non-union workday

[vmc1161]

Typical non-union workday

Nice way to introduce yourself...just what we need, another small minded person.


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[energy star]

Wanna see this get worse? Sit down one day with all the cell phone bills. Block out all the time spent on calls during the 8 hours you are paying the employee. It's more than you think.

How did you get this job?

Did a tech go out first to fix, and couldn't, then came back to you and said you need to re-do a bunch? A simple drawing or sending the tech back to double check the bill of materials may be worth the time in some instances.

[skwsproul]

Wanna see this get worse? Sit down one day with all the cell phone bills. Block out all the time spent on calls during the 8 hours you are paying the employee. It's more than you think.

How did you get this job?

Did a tech go out first to fix, and couldn't, then came back to you and said you need to re-do a bunch? A simple drawing or sending the tech back to double check the bill of materials may be worth the time in some instances.

Would it be nice to get paid for the time we spend on the net or on the phone or talking to people about the buisiness we do. I know that my company makes out on the extra time I spend, I just wish it could be more visable or at least a way to track it better so I could get paid for it. I am still hourly and for now I guess in light of this I would not want to change that yet but will very soon.

[skwsproul]

Nice way to introduce yourself...just what we need, another small minded person.


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EXACTLY

[vmc1161]

EXACTLY

Looks like he ran out of steam...35 post in about two months and none in about a month...he will reappear as soon as there is something bad to say...

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[skwsproul]

Looks like he ran out of steam...35 post in about two months and none in about a month...he will reappear as soon as there is something bad to say...

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The thing that bothers me is I am always getting approached to join the union but all i ever hear is them bad mouthing everyone in and out of their union. I dont mind union or non-union there are good and bad either way but I wouldnt want to join based on the things that are flung around. i dont know maybe I am weird but I like to try to enjoy my day without all of the negativity.

[flange]

I deal with nine manufacturers of equipment. I provide start up and warranty service, as well as cleaning up any mistakes that got away from the factories. Its amazing to me that they will call me and say "it will take x amount of time " to start up this job. We just did a bunch of equipment on a casino, Their estimate one man day, real time spent six man days. They have no idea about real world. My usual reply is that I will do the job and tell you how much time it took once completed. In most cases there are problems, ATC, Electrical contractor not ready, shipping blocks not removed, units not clean, and so on. We document everything and bill accordingly. Its amazing how little time these folks think is required on projects these days. If you are a quality mechanic, stand your ground, do your job and thats it. No one can fault you for taking the time to do it right. They may not like it, but will not fault you.

[vmc1161]

I deal with nine manufacturers of equipment. I provide start up and warranty service, as well as cleaning up any mistakes that got away from the factories. Its amazing to me that they will call me and say "it will take x amount of time " to start up this job. We just did a bunch of equipment on a casino, Their estimate one man day, real time spent six man days. They have no idea about real world. My usual reply is that I will do the job and tell you how much time it took once completed. In most cases there are problems, ATC, Electrical contractor not ready, shipping blocks not removed, units not clean, and so on. We document everything and bill accordingly. Its amazing how little time these folks think is required on projects these days. If you are a quality mechanic, stand your ground, do your job and thats it. No one can fault you for taking the time to do it right. They may not like it, but will not fault you.

Great post...and right on...I do work for mechanical contractor all the time and it seems the only consistent mistake they make is "time" ...not theirs, yours.

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[ChristopherNJ]

Typical non-union workday

LOL!