Cracked drain pan in newer Lennox

[jaw444]

Water drips out of the side of my Lennox GCS12 AC/heater unit that sits on the roof. The leak makes a large puddle on the patio.

The unit was installed new in July 2005, three years ago.

Week before last, the company that installed it came out for the twice a year maintenance service and changed the filter. I told him about the leaking. He checked it out, and i thought he said there was no problem.

But the puddle kept returning and i can see the dripping coming out of the side of the unit.

So last Monday i called them to say this was still happening. I was given an appointment for Wednesday between 4 and 6. At 5:30 no one had come and i called. I was told i didn't have an appointment on Wednesday, my appointment was from 4 to 6 on Thursday. I had stayed home from work on Wednesday. Apparently they wrote my appointment down for Thursday even though they told me Wednesday.

I needed to be at work on Thursday. but, i took the afternoon off because i need to have the AC fixed. It was stressful to miss work and not be able to get work done, and to rush home through the traffic.

I got to my home exactly at 4. The phone was ringing, it was the technician calling, asking if i was there and if he could come over. Then, we talked about the problem, on the phone, and he remembered when he was out the week before, and he said he had tried to fix the problem by sealing the leak when he was there but apparently it didn't work.

So then he said the drain pan was cracked. He said there was no point in him coming over that day because he needed the drain pan part which would have to be ordered, and also the labor would take a while. I was upset about having to take time off from work just to be told he couldn't fix it until some time in the future. I missed work two days in a row because they gave me appointments and then no one came.

He said he would call the office and call me back and tell me how much this would cost. He called back and said that usually it costs $750 but since i'm a regular customer, they will do the repair for $475, and he will let me know when the part comes in.

I did not feel good about this, so today, i called another company and they came out to to look at the unit. The man said the other guy had wrapped duct tape around the drain pipe, which he had to peel off. He said the drain pan was cracked. He said this is a very unusual unheard of repair in newer models, the pan is made of plastic and is made to last many years. He said that the cause of the crack appeared to be that whoever installed it did not provide any support for the drain line. The drain line, as i could see, was hanging in the air, it was not laying on the roof but was suspended about 4 to 6 inches above the roof. He said when water is in the drain line, it can get heavy and the weight of the drain line pulling down has cracked the drain pan. He said that proper installation would've involved putting two by fours under the drain line so that its weight would be supported.

He also said there was no P trap attached to the the parts and that a P trap needed to be installed.

He also said that the return duct had come loose and was hanging free and was sucking hot air from my attic, instead of whatever it's supposed to be doing. He said the return duct needed to be reattached.

So the needed repairs included a new drain pan, repair or alteration of the drain line so that it would either lay on the roof or be supported by 2x4s, installation of a P trap, and re-connecting of the return duct. He said that just replacement of the drain pan with parts and labor would be $375. But he said the additional work, installing the P trap, reconnecting the return duct, fixing the drain line so that it was supported, would bring the cost up higher, he wasn't sure what, but guessed it would be around $700 total.

He said he recommended that i not have his company do the work. He said that the problems were all the result of improper installation, that i should not have any of these problems with this almost new unit, and that in the 10 years he's been working for this company, he's never seen a cracked drain pan since they've been using plastic. He said that's why the part has to be ordered, they don't keep them on hand because it's not a common repair.

He said the damage to the drain pan is not from normal wear and tear, and is not from any kind of misuse. It's unrelated to maintenance or lack of.

So, now, i'm waiting til Monday to call the company that installed the unit and ask them to fix it at their own expense and to make it the way it's supposed to be when installed properly.

Because i know nothing about any of this, i am posting here in hopes of having some other opinions about the likelihood of a cracked drain pan on a Lennox 12GCS installed in 2005, and whether this is a failure that a customer should have to pay to have fixed. The guy from the second company said that Lennox has a 5 year warranty on parts, but that this is only if they are defective, and that it's probably not a defect in the plastic, in fact, he said there was no sign that the plastic was defective. He said it appeared that the weight of the drain line pulling down on the pan caused it to crack.

If approaching the company who installed the unit is the right thing to do, i would like pointers on how to ask in a respectful way that invites the company to do the right thing, and i am nervous about the fact that i don't have any technical knowledge about this, and if they tell me that this is a normal wear and tear problem, i don't know what more i can say. I plan to say that i wanted to get a second opinion so i had this other company look at it, considering how new it is, i wanted to double check on having such an expensive repair, and tell them what the other company said--he put it in writing on the invoice for the service call.

The guy from the second company said if the first company won't agree to fix it, i should call Lennox and ask them for help in solving the problem. He said they are a good company and they could either intervene with the company that installed the unit, or they could pay to have another company fix it.

[Tiger93rsl]

For starters because the installation was done three years ago you are finished with any kind of liabilaties against lennox or the company that installed it. Second because it is on the roof you do not need a p-trap, that is only for noise suppression in a condensate line. And third yes the condensate line should have been dropped down to the roof and supported with 2x4's underneath it, and graded to 1/4" drop per linear foot, their should be no water stading in the condensate drain at any given time

[Airmechanical]

because it is on the roof you do not need a p-trap, that is only for noise suppression in a condensate line.

i don't think you understand what you are talking about

also, i think you could use some HVAC training

when your not familiar with the issues you should not comment
__________________________________________________ ______________________

to JAW44, get the recommendations of the second tech along with pictures of the install

ask the service manager or owner of the original installing company to have a meeting with you

and see if you can get your problem resolved with a nice everyone is happy solution

this is all common sense stuff, it "sounds like" the second tech. was correct with his diagnosis

however i can not see your job from here, HVAC is a lot of common sense

use that common sense to figure out if you think the original installing company

should fix your problems for free, please let us know what happens



.

[Mrcyber07]

yes the install company should eat the cost if alls true, unless some1 else stepped on the drain an broke the pan.. and always use a p trap its not only 4 noise but also helps in proper draining of the pan...maybe a 50/50 deal could be worked out...

[badboyheel]

dude i've never heard of a p-trap being use for noise reduction and most manufacturers spec are for 1/8" per foot......anyways sounds like someone bumped the condensate drain and cracked it IMO....i don't think the weight of the water would have done it. good luck!

[Tiger93rsl]

i don't think you understand what you are talking about

also, i think you could use some HVAC training

when your not familiar with the issues you should not comment
__________________________________________________ ______________________

to JAW44, get the recommendations of the second tech along with pictures of the install

ask the service manager or owner of the original installing company to have a meeting with you

and see if you can get your problem resolved with a nice everyone is happy solution

this is all common sense stuff, it "sounds like" the second tech. was correct with his diagnosis

however i can not see your job from here, HVAC is a lot of common sense

use that common sense to figure out if you think the original installing company

should fix your problems for free, please let us know what happens



.

Been in the business for 15 years and I have never seen a P trap installed on a roof top that is indirectly waisted, it is to be disposed of down a storm drain only. However I do see a benifet of installing a p trap on a roof top unit but it will still drain without one installed.

[Tiger93rsl]

dude i've never heard of a p-trap being use for noise reduction and most manufacturers spec are for 1/8" per foot......anyways sounds like someone bumped the condensate drain and cracked it IMO....i don't think the weight of the water would have done it. good luck!

If you ever run across a unit without a p trap and just a tee installed you will hear fan noise comming out the tee along with some air flow. I should say it is more for proper draining of the pan however it also cuts down on blower noise.

[Airmechanical]

If you ever run across a unit without a p trap and just a tee installed you will hear fan noise comming out the tee along with some air flow. I should say it is more for proper draining of the pan however it also cuts down on blower noise.

looks like your "STARTING" to get the idea



.

[Tiger93rsl]

looks like your "STARTING" to get the idea



.

Yea I got a little ahead of myself on that one, and come to think about I have seen a few p traps installed on newer RTU's but it's not very common to see them installed on older units.

[catmanacman]

they could epoxy the drain pan depending on how bad it is cracked and properly rerun drain line

[jaw444]

For starters because the installation was done three years ago you are finished with any kind of liabilaties against lennox or the company that installed it. Second because it is on the roof you do not need a p-trap, that is only for noise suppression in a condensate line. And third yes the condensate line should have been dropped down to the roof and supported with 2x4's underneath it, and graded to 1/4" drop per linear foot, their should be no water stading in the condensate drain at any given time

thanks for the reply. If the lack of proper support for the drain line and lack of proper trapping contributed to the cracked pan, do you think when they replace the pan they should also fix the drain line so that it's supported and install a P-trap? In another post, i read that you said you don't usually see P-traps on older models. Mine was manufactured in 2005. Is that considered to be an older model?

When you say the installer wouldn't have any liability after 3 years, does this mean even if there's clear evidence of improper installation, if there is such evidence?
thanks

[jaw444]

to JAW44, get the recommendations of the second tech along with pictures of the install

ask the service manager or owner of the original installing company to have a meeting with you

and see if you can get your problem resolved with a nice everyone is happy solution

this is all common sense stuff, it "sounds like" the second tech. was correct with his diagnosis

however i can not see your job from here, HVAC is a lot of common sense

use that common sense to figure out if you think the original installing company

should fix your problems for free, please let us know what happens



.

thanks for the suggestion. I thought i would just call the manager or owner on the phone, but it seems better to have a meeting. I guess i will call and speak to him on the phone and tell him i need for him to come and look at the installation because my understanding is that the pan should not have cracked under normal use so i don't understand why i am having this expensive repair. I guess i should also tell him i had another company come out to get a second opinion and that they said the drain line needs to be supported and a P-trap is needed. I'm also concerned about the return duct being disconnected. Is that common? Shouldn't they fix that?
anyway, thanks!

[catmanacman]

good luck on getting it fixed for free after 3 years ,also alot of roof top units require a trap look in the installers guide

[Airmechanical]

Yea I got a little ahead of myself on that one, and come to think about I have seen a few p traps installed on newer RTU's but it's not very common to see them installed on older units.

there were a few versions of Carrier RTU's that came with a built in P-trap installed at the factory

aside from those all of the other RTU's without a built in P-trap do drain better with traps

also with P-trap's installed it will eliminate pulling in unwanted hot ambient air!



.

[Airmechanical]

I'm also concerned about the return duct being disconnected. Is that common? Shouldn't they fix that? anyway, thanks!

they are not gonna fix that for free!

but it deffinately needs to be fixxed!



.

[jaw444]

yes the install company should eat the cost if alls true, unless some1 else stepped on the drain an broke the pan.. and always use a p trap its not only 4 noise but also helps in proper draining of the pan...maybe a 50/50 deal could be worked out...

thanks. I am trying to find out what is considered 'proper installation.' Particularly, i want to find out about the effects of having or not having a P-trap on the pan, and i want to find out about the effects of the drain line being suspended in the air, hanging from the pan, instead of laying on the roof or supported by 2x4s. Is this considered proper to not have support for the line and not have a P-trap? Will it not harm anything to do it this way? The instruction manual that came with the unit says "the drain line must be properly trapped and routed to a suitable drain." The manual also has in italicized letters, "NOTE: The condensate drain must be properly trapped to provide proper drainage." Are they talking about a P-trap here or are there other kinds of traps that could be properly used by an installer?

here's some pictures of what it looks like from the outside and the diagram from the Installation Instructions. The photos show the duct tape the guy used to 'fix' the problem when i reported it to him while he was there doing the regular maintenance. You can see that the drain line is off the ground for about 4 or 5 feet before it reaches the roof. It looks like there's a tilting or pulling to the side of the pipe that connects to the pan. i don't know if the diagram is much like the way mine is set up, they look different to me, but of course i'm sure there is variation in the proper way to do this.

[jaw444]

they are not gonna fix that for free!

but it deffinately needs to be fixxed!



.

Any ideas what could cause the duct to disconnect? Is this normal wear and tear? Is it something that i somehow caused by misuse?

Is it very common for people to have so many different problems like this with a 3 year old unit? I don't remember hearing people with newer units talk about having problems. I hear people say "I've had my air conditioner for 15 years and i think i may need to get a new one," and things like that, but for $8500 three years ago, is it really normal to need re-running the drain line, replacing the drain pan, installing a P-trap and reconnecting the return duct after three years?

wow. i had no idea that this was normal and acceptable quality. I never had an AC before. This is my mom's house, she's 90 with dementia. I lived by the beach and never needed AC. I just naively assumed this was not something that needed a lot of repairs. Before we got my mom to install this AC, she had an evaporative cooler on the roof that was decades old and never required repair. i guess they don't make them like they used to. buyer beware, huh?

I had heard the Lennox was a good brand, but I'll try another brand next time because i just can't accept that all of them have this many problems so soon after they are installed. When i was first looking into which one to get, people were telling me that their ACs were trouble free.

[jaw444]

i inquired about the the drain pan part by email and i just got a reply. It's not very much. a small fraction of the estimate for the repair. I wonder if they plan on including a P-trap and re-positioning the drain line when they do the repair. And reconnecting the duct. I'll call and find out tomorrow. The suspense is killing me. Not sure about trusting the quality of their work. I guess after they do it, i'll have the guy from the other company come out and check it. I wish i'd had someone come out and check it after it was first installed.

[REFERJMAN]

i'm not very famillar with lennox rtu's but no matter the brand if the drain line is on the suction side of the blower you definitly need a p trap for proper drainage.

[badboyheel]

first of all its odviously not the brand of the AC. lennox is a fine brand. its obvious that the install is the problem....a loose return duct, slightly improper installation of condensate. i'd talk to the install co. about these issues. in my opinion its not the equipment, its the install