Boiler Question

[GT Jets]

Other comments that give me the impression that boilers/district steam are no longer installed in new buildings:

supertek65
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Professional Member Join Date:Sep 2004
Location:8th grade
Posts:13,812Cost cost cost.

But when gas and oil were cheap and comfort was more important than efficiency.
There were dual duct systems!
Heat was sized to be used with cooling in a dual duct application as are 100% of my accounts.

Now single duct vav.
Series and parallel fan powered boxes with strip heat on the perimeter! Basically to wash the windows!

Now they are using lighting with way less watts/btus.

The lack of heat from lighting decreases cooling load but
Increases the heating requirements.

Nothing is free!


DeltaT
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Professional Member*
Join Date:Nov 2001
Location:Seattle, WA
Posts:7,274 Add to that the lack of skills and the emphasis of set it and forget it management based on some type of software looking over all the equipment now not being maintained by skilled workers that pretty much aren't available anymore and the pressure to get the highest rent possible over the short term with the absolute least amount of costs to the building owner and it adds up to what we experience today.

That would mean a penthouse and/or a basement would have to be built and used for non rental space. Any floor space that is horizontal is considerer rentable so it's not going to be used for machinery for heating/cooling the building. And that is also why any new or remodeled building has the HVAC stuff in the ceiling.

Back in the 70's there was a completely different mind set. Machine rooms were common and necessary simply because unitary equipment did not exist. Plus labor was way more skilled, built up systems were the only way to go. Air handlers typically were centralized and the cost of labor and the way of doing business including the costs of doing business was much more humane as compared to today.

It was a era of skill, pride in workmanship, heavily built equipment that would last (as it has) for years and years and a completely different mind set. Most of the money spent back then was based on long term, long lasting investments with a steady economic growth with long term tenants of all kinds.

Now, it's build a big box, fill it with the working stuff in places that are extrememly hard to reach and out of the way of any floor space, tenants that are pushed to extinction by costs and regulations, economic factors that can drive anyone out of business in a few years and technology as an excuse for long lasting and proper performing equipment of all kinds.

In neither of these examples does it say the hydronic heat is being phased out in new construction.

[timmy2734]

Other comments that give me the impression that boilers/district steam are no longer installed in new buildings:

supertek65
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Professional Member Join Date:Sep 2004
Location:8th grade
Posts:13,812Cost cost cost.

But when gas and oil were cheap and comfort was more important than efficiency.
There were dual duct systems!
Heat was sized to be used with cooling in a dual duct application as are 100% of my accounts.

Now single duct vav.
Series and parallel fan powered boxes with strip heat on the perimeter! Basically to wash the windows!

Now they are using lighting with way less watts/btus.

The lack of heat from lighting decreases cooling load but
Increases the heating requirements.

Nothing is free!


DeltaT
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Professional Member*
Join Date:Nov 2001
Location:Seattle, WA
Posts:7,274 Add to that the lack of skills and the emphasis of set it and forget it management based on some type of software looking over all the equipment now not being maintained by skilled workers that pretty much aren't available anymore and the pressure to get the highest rent possible over the short term with the absolute least amount of costs to the building owner and it adds up to what we experience today.

That would mean a penthouse and/or a basement would have to be built and used for non rental space. Any floor space that is horizontal is considerer rentable so it's not going to be used for machinery for heating/cooling the building. And that is also why any new or remodeled building has the HVAC stuff in the ceiling.

Back in the 70's there was a completely different mind set. Machine rooms were common and necessary simply because unitary equipment did not exist. Plus labor was way more skilled, built up systems were the only way to go. Air handlers typically were centralized and the cost of labor and the way of doing business including the costs of doing business was much more humane as compared to today.

It was a era of skill, pride in workmanship, heavily built equipment that would last (as it has) for years and years and a completely different mind set. Most of the money spent back then was based on long term, long lasting investments with a steady economic growth with long term tenants of all kinds.

Now, it's build a big box, fill it with the working stuff in places that are extrememly hard to reach and out of the way of any floor space, tenants that are pushed to extinction by costs and regulations, economic factors that can drive anyone out of business in a few years and technology as an excuse for long lasting and proper performing equipment of all kinds.

So how big are the buidlings that these guys are talking about? How many tons of cooling do they call for? How much heat is needed?

[MHall]

I showed you a handful of brand new buildings here in NYC that are connecting to city steam. Why do you continually choose to ignore them?

I have yet to see any examples of a brand new building using the district steam loop posted here.

[timmy2734]

These were all posted in this thread.

http://www.fmmcorp.com/project/detai...ct.html/page:1

http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/thesis/po...2%20REPORT.pdf

http://www.fmmcorp.com/project/detai...hs.html/page:2

http://www.fmmcorp.com/project/detai...ue.html/page:2

http://www.fmmcorp.com/project/detai...ng.html/page:2

[Joehvac25]

This thread is going nowhere fast lol, just goes in circles!

[timmy2734]

It was going nowhere by page 2 or 3 at best

[MHall]

It was going nowhere by page 2 or 3 at best

I have asked and will continue to ask some legitimate questions related to boilers and hydronic heat. I will try and focus more on the technical details. Thank you to all who have contributed so far!

[timmy2734]

Nobody has a problem with your questions. You just don't seem to listen to what anyone on here has to say.

[meplumber]

I was done with this thread and THIS CHILD after my third attempt to tell him. He doesn't want to listen, so why waste anymore time on him.

[Joehvac25]

I was done with this thread and THIS CHILD after my third attempt to tell him. He doesn't want to listen, so why waste anymore time on him.

Ya I seem to recall when I was in 12th grade I knew I all, I think we have a case of that on our hands lol

[BaldLoonie]

I also mentioned that about anything new built in Indy is on district steam & chilled water. I gave the example of the new city hospital. 3 boilers are being added to a new central plant and the building will be tied to the existing steam & chilled water lines. Also 4 of the 5 Marriott hotels just built including the worlds largest JW Marriott are on the steam & chiller loop. Lucas Oil Stadium which hosted the Super Bowl 2012 is across from the steam plant and served by district energy. The convention center, new IU Health buildings, a large new "City Way" shop & hotel complex just opened... All told, over 200 buildings downtown are heated and 50 cooled by district energy. Many buildings with dying chillers tie into the loop instead of replacing chillers. On Monument Circle, the Circle Tower and the Monument both did that, the World War Memorial, Embassy Suites...

Yes, I can see office buildings without access to this service doing without a boiler. Many will use large packaged units on the roof instead of boiler/chiller. But as I also posted, most schools built recently do have boiler/chillers. A new Renaissance Inn in our suburb has an air cooled chiller and a couple boiler stacks. Also in our suburb, a new 2 building performing arts center is served by a small district energy plant. City hall and the cop shop tied into it. On a bitter morning, you'll see steam from a cooling tower on plus steam from the boiler stacks.

[Abrnth3]

Boilers over 50# here in Illinois have to have 24/7 monitoring. other wise it is up to the facillities manager. Insurance provider. Small boilers big bombs!

[Gus-Herb94]

I also mentioned that about anything new built in Indy is on district steam & chilled water. I gave the example of the new city hospital. 3 boilers are being added to a new central plant and the building will be tied to the existing steam & chilled water lines. Also 4 of the 5 Marriott hotels just built including the worlds largest JW Marriott are on the steam & chiller loop. Lucas Oil Stadium which hosted the Super Bowl 2012 is across from the steam plant and served by district energy. The convention center, new IU Health buildings, a large new "City Way" shop & hotel complex just opened... All told, over 200 buildings downtown are heated and 50 cooled by district energy. Many buildings with dying chillers tie into the loop instead of replacing chillers. On Monument Circle, the Circle Tower and the Monument both did that, the World War Memorial, Embassy Suites...

Yes, I can see office buildings without access to this service doing without a boiler. Many will use large packaged units on the roof instead of boiler/chiller. But as I also posted, most schools built recently do have boiler/chillers. A new Renaissance Inn in our suburb has an air cooled chiller and a couple boiler stacks. Also in our suburb, a new 2 building performing arts center is served by a small district energy plant. City hall and the cop shop tied into it. On a bitter morning, you'll see steam from a cooling tower on plus steam from the boiler stacks.

I've noticed newer low rise office/commercial buildings built from approx 2000 and on utilizing chiller and boiler heat more then buildings built in the 80s-90s. Those I seem to see more DX packaged rooftop systems (with VAV's for zoning)

This reminds of a story that's not really on topic at all but I feel like telling it anyway, there is this banquet center that has about 30-40 residential split condensers out back, and I assume an equal amount of gas furnaces inside somewhere. I thought somebody had gone mad and paired clusters together for each banquet room. Last year I had gone there for an event, and to make matters worse, come to find out that each split condenser/furnace operated as a SEPARATE system.
Each single banquet room had 5-10 zones each. There were remote sensors placed every 10 feet on the walls....couldn't imagine what the room with all the thermostats looked like!
To this day I wonder WTF they thought they were doing.

[MHall]

This quote by the user; "DeltaT" is one of the main statements that convinced me that boilers for hydronic steam/hot water heat are only installed in older buildings.: DeltaT
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Professional Member*
Join Date:Nov 2001
Location:Seattle, WA
Posts:7,283Originally posted by benncool

Originally, central power plants were the way to go. Two, 3 or 4 pipe systems were the way. Now it's more or less small water source heat pumps located in the inaccessable ceilings.

Two reasons for this. Most local codes require a permanent on site building engineer where there are large chillers or boilers. This is expensive. Second, chiller/boiler rooms take up entire floors of space that could be use for rental income. So ceiling mounted heat pumps take up no rental space, just a cooling tower on the roof. And no building engineer needs to be on site.

So the answer is it depends on when the building was built. Early 80's and before you probably will have central chiller/boilers rooms. After that it's all individual systems located in ceilings.

[timmy2734]

[QUOTE=MHall;15337141]This quote by the user; "DeltaT" is one of the main statements that convinced me that boilers for hydronic steam/hot water heat are only installed in older buildings.:

You're right, everyone else here is wrong. This thread can now be closed and destroyed.

[ControlsInMT]

Grade on READING COMPREHENSION for MHall........F-

[MHall]

Grade on READING COMPREHENSION for MHall........F-

I am just going by what an experienced member of the forum stated. If it's not true why did he say it........?

[ControlsInMT]

I am just going by what an experienced member of the forum stated. If it's not true why did he say it........?

And he followed up with an answer. Funny that you keep changing your ridiculous reasoning when everyone shoots it down. You ego, is definetly second to none on here.

Ask away, all the questions you want. I for one will never ATTEMPT (since you can't comprehend what you read) to answer one again.

[MHall]

Here is a valid question that I have;

In going through the TDLR Boiler Records, I have seen many licensed Boilers that are for the purpose of providing domestic hot water. Many laundry centers, hotels, apartments have a "boiler" listed for the purposes of: "hot water supply".

My question today is; Why are these units called "boilers" when they are doing the same thing a water heater does??? A commercial water heater does not have to be licensed, regulated etc as a boiler does. Why not have a large water heater??

Any information is appreciated. Thank you.

PS: The “boilers” listed for providing hot water supply could not too large, as I have seen these units listed as being located in smaller places such as apartments and even restaurants.

[Cagey57]

179 posts ? Reasonable answers to marginal questions.
I say "Troll" !

I'm done here .