inexpensive training for LonWorks; BACnet

[stromaik]

Benn working with BAS for 20+ and the last 6 years with MS NT, 2000 networks. Previous experience includes MMC Powers.
Landis & GYR S600 and INsight for PC (Pre Apogee) applied for several positions - need LonWorks and BACnet experience. What is tridium?

[sysint]

You could train yourself on Lonworks quickly by yourself.
http://www.echelon.com
http://www.lonmark.org
See if you can get some training version of LM from Echelon.

Since nobody is consistent with bacnet good luck. I'd say you are stuck vendor specific with bacnet except in the most basic instances.

[junkman]

You will want to make your own decision about BACnet and Lontalk. sysint is VERY bias for Lon and against BACnet (which is an ASHRAE standard).
Training is available for both.
Tridium is a company that has a product that basicly ports other peoples stuff to their device.
They use java in their device to talk many different protocol's including BACnet and Lontalk.

sysint, when is that website you have listed in your profile going to be working?

[amigo]

here are some brief overviews:
LON
BACnet

The bottom line is you will come across these and many other systems in automation and integration applications. So educate yourself as much as possible, then your decisions/preferences and path will become clearer.

[sysint]

Originally posted by junkman
You will want to make your own decision about BACnet and Lontalk. sysint is VERY bias for Lon and against BACnet (which is an ASHRAE standard).
Training is available for both.
Tridium is a company that has a product that basicly ports other peoples stuff to their device.
They use java in their device to talk many different protocol's including BACnet and Lontalk.

sysint, when is that website you have listed in your profile going to be working?

Website works. Look at your address bar when you click the link and delete the redirect.

Am I biased toward LON? Yep. Because it works. Lonworks.

Simple communication and interoperability isn't an issue to be overcome like in bacnet. After all these years that's the biggest joke about bacnet. bacnet is a joke.

ASHRAE-Trashrae. I'm disgusted by the group with their bacnet stance. Bunch of whores. So much for an independant group. Helps them line their pockets with a little extra $$$$. Got news for you guys, there is more to BAS than HVAC.

Also, the poor implementation of bacnet necessitated somebody to come up with a framework that can sit on top of it because bacnet can't get the job done. It's called the Niagra Framework. (Tridium) At least Tridium works (albeit expensive). The Bacnetter's should have a bad taste in their mouths that Tridium displaces the functions bacnet was designed to do in the first place. Not only that but Lonworks is vastly superior to bacnet on the device level. bacnet is getting the squeeze from both directions.

EDIT: http://www.hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthr...threadid=71120

[Edited by sysint on 11-04-2005 at 06:41 AM]

[junkman]

sysint, http://www.csicontrols.net/pop_up.asp the web demo is broken, and always displays N/A?

Wait, I use FireFox as my web browser, but it works under Internet Exploder.. Looks good. Very nice graphics.

Since we all know your stance, I wont respond to the Lon statement again..

[dageek]

hmmm, I like BACnet . . . don't like LON...yeah, there's pros and cons on bath but . . . with LON you get snvt'd to death . . . plus, it's a commercial protocol and not a standard as with the Ashrae standard.

some BACnet basics are at http://www.bacnet.org . . . and, it's coming under more gov't interests....choose for yourself . . but, yeah, training is really brand specific for the most part

[sysint]

LON is an international standard for multiple industries.

Is bacnet a standard for transportation? NO
Is bacnet a standard for industrial? NO
Is bacnet a standard for security? NO
Is bacnet a standard for homes? NO
Appliances? NO
Is bacnet a standard for metering? NO

Are there any bacnet protocol (not talking gates) Fire, Security, Access control, Elevator or CCTV systems? NO NO NO NO NO.

Is bacnet a standard for ASHRAE? YES (how convenient)

For Lonworks the answer to all those questions is YES.

ASHRAE Bacnetter's are in the commericial field of business using ASHRAE as a shield. It's a sham, it's a joke. Stand on your own feet instead of lying to engineers with an ASHRAE label.

If you had to promote bacnet without ASHRAE propping it up it wouldn't make it on it's own.

What it amounts to is that ASHRAE is now in the business of selling with the vendors. ASHRAE shouldn't be selling. I find their behavior absolutely disgusting. It stinks.

"training is really brand specific for the most part"

-if that's not proof in the pudding.... I thought that bacnet was a standard? Apparently not.

Maybe if you guys were actually honest about the situation it wouldn't be such an issue with me. But, I see the lying propaganda is increasing again.

[sysint]

Originally posted by junkman
sysint, ....the web demo is broken, and always displays N/A?

Wait, I use FireFox as my web browser, but it works under Internet Exploder.. Looks good. Very nice graphics....

No controllers on the demo at the moment. Also bumping it up to latest version.

Not too happy that the original engine was only IE friendly...

M-soft kind of works like ASHRAE Bacnetters so you have to expect this sort of incompatibility.

We are in the process of getting around that and making the interface truly open and not a joke. I actually like using that Opera browser myself right now. About equal Firefox/Opera use with as minimal use of IE as possible.

[junkman]

"training is really brand specific for the most part"

-if that's not proof in the pudding.... I thought that bacnet was a standard? Apparently not.

Training will be for tools that use BACnet or Lontalk, because that is what we do... we use the tools -- or software/hardware use the underlying protocols.

[lonboy]

Got to agree with Sys here re the difference between Bacnet and Lon. Lon is about choices and interoperability at the device level. While the Bacnet protocol is open - it's only proven interoperable at the system level.

Like my girlfriend tells me when I go on the road - it's OK for me to be open but not interoperable!

Lately, I've jumped back into the controls business after spending 7 years as a training guy for Echelon. Now, I'm busier than a frog in a frying pan. Maybe when things ease up a bit, I'll have time to go back on the road and do some training again. Wouldn't it be cool if Sysint and I could do a workshop! Whad'ya think Sys?

If you're willing to learn from your mistakes - the best way to become familiar with the technology is to use it. Read all you can about LonWorks from the volumes of information available. Select a few LonMark certified devices that come with plug-ins. Get an LNS network management tool. Buy an internet server. Install a small network for your home or shop. Get others involved - you'd be surprised how well high school kids can build web pages and pick up on how this stuff works.

Above all, have fun!
Cheers,
lb

[osiyo]

Originally posted by lonboy
Lon is about choices and interoperability at the device level. While the Bacnet protocol is open - it's only proven interoperable at the system level.

That pretty well sums things up.

In truth, I don't think BacNet and Lon have the same goals and purposes in their design. Not really.

Get others involved - you'd be surprised how well high school kids can build web pages and pick up on how this stuff works.

Come on now, ANYBODY can build web pages. Can't they?

Geez, high schoolers around here would never think of trying to impress anyone by showing off some web page they built.

Around here, they're more likely to do things like try to crack the school district's latest and greatest computer and network security measures, figure out a way to copy that "uncopyable" DVD, etc. Or like happened recently, an electronics shop instructor at a local high school had to stop some students who were busy taking apart a computer controlled robot the school had bought as a teaching aid. Students weren't trying to be destructive. Wanted to see what kind of microprocessor, memory, etc robot had as they figured they could've done a better programming job than the manufacturer did. They wanted to reprogram durned thing to do something useful or entertaining.

[sysint]

Originally posted by lonboy
Got to agree with Sys here re the difference between Bacnet and Lon. Lon is about choices and interoperability at the device level. While the Bacnet protocol is open - it's only proven interoperable at the system level....
If you're willing to learn from your mistakes - the best way to become familiar with the technology is to use it....
Above all, have fun!

Device level is where it's at. bacnet's in trouble in regards to this. My guess is the near future holds out LON based mesh networks.... (as somebody pointed out to me - and why I thought PLT would have more presence by now)maybe have every 5th lighting ballast transmit signal... (kind of the pattern of LON NES w/concentrators and nodes routing.)Anyway, LON is at device level same language multiple mediums. You go from PLT to wireless to twisted with no GC's or BCU's.

Wouldn't it be cool if Sysint and I could do a workshop! Whad'ya think Sys?

....... well, I'm pushing 2 other companies besides this one... people tell me I'm going to writing a book someday... Lonworks has been fun... I'll think on it. Would it be fun?

This brings me full circle on this. I taught myself LON on my own time and formed an integration company. Tell me how that happens with the established ASHRAE Bacnetter way of doing things? How does the ASHRAE Bacnetter machine foster independants quickly making devices and forming companies with innovative products? Or technicians learning a protocol completely?

What incentive do these sniveling, 'promote a spec to help us sell' bacnetters do to advance the industry? At least with Echelon they are upfront about actually being a business...

They line their pockets well by locking entire subsystems of their product forcing owners to live with them until they get the boot.

I've got a fundamental problem with their methods...

I say take your pious stuck up elitist garbage elsewhere. I hope Modbus, EIB, Zigbee, LON, Niagra Framework(s) and every other protocol out there kicks your tail.

Keep in mind my ire is more directed to ASHRAE. What a bunch of propaganda pushing liars. They should be ashamed of themselves.