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  1. #14
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    Dry as a bone Tucson
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    4,170
    Not familiar with your area but a 6" double wall seems to do more harm than good. The velocity of the combustion air is going to slow down and all the moisture will condense on the inner wall before it buoy's up and out. A smaller surface area i think would retain more heat and improve the physics factors of heat and velocity. I think that down the road you will find double wall pipes in chimenies that are rusted out.

    Nice work.
    Some Talk, Some Do
    "keeping condensing pressures low and evaporator pressures high"
    Comfort is my goal
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  2. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Baltimore MD and Ridgebury PA
    Posts
    542
    Quote Originally Posted by Glennhvac View Post
    Andrew, I know what the vent kit does, Iwas curious why 6" over 4". In thinking about it it may be that they want 6" bvent over the normal 4" single wall is to provide more dilution air then 4" would provide.
    Heat pump? I still can't see them for Chicago applications personally. The only ones around here (which I do not service) are hooked to electric furnaces. The other issue I have is that this is one of those homes where they put the supplies up high on the inside walls and the returns along the outside. They did this for a few years in the early 50's it seems. The end result is I need some throw to get that heat across the darn room and sadly that kind of killed the idea of 2 stage for me with that low blower speed on low fire.
    I don't know why one would exclude heat pumps just because you live in Chicago. I don't know what you pay for electric vs gas though so maybe that's it. I have installed heat pump dual fuel units in the northern tier of PA (within miles of Elmira NY if you want to get an idea of the area) and they definitely save money vs a gas furnace and straight AC. Also, since you'd be doing it yourself the only added cost would be the price difference between the heat pump and AC.

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Chicago, IL
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    4,305
    Quote Originally Posted by platchford View Post
    I don't know why one would exclude heat pumps just because you live in Chicago. I don't know what you pay for electric vs gas though so maybe that's it.
    I believe we have some of the cheapest natural gas in the nation, accompanied by one of the highest electric rates. I have seen two heat pumps in my life (excluding mini-splits), both were in condos that did not have gas service. I have never seen a heat pump in a house.

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Baltimore MD and Ridgebury PA
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    542
    Quote Originally Posted by craig1 View Post
    I believe we have some of the cheapest natural gas in the nation, accompanied by one of the highest electric rates. I have seen two heat pumps in my life (excluding mini-splits), both were in condos that did not have gas service. I have never seen a heat pump in a house.
    That would certainly explain it. Might I inquire what electric rates and nat gas rates you have up there?

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Erie, PA
    Posts
    129
    Quote Originally Posted by platchford View Post
    That would certainly explain it. Might I inquire what electric rates and nat gas rates you have up there?
    Theres no heat pumps around here, either. Our Electric rates have surpassed our NG rates.

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Baltimore MD and Ridgebury PA
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    542
    Quote Originally Posted by SPBryant View Post
    Theres no heat pumps around here, either. Our Electric rates have surpassed our NG rates.
    In my experience they weren't real popular to begin with in PA in part because the electric heat demand would be so high on a properly sized unit. While dual-fuel has been around a long time, I don't think the market penetration in PA was ever very high. What are your electric rates vs your nat gas rates? In PA nat gas should stay fairly steady for a long time given the amount of nat gas wells being drilled in the part of PA I grew up in. Granted it's ultimately a world market for the gas but it helps having it local.

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    967
    Looks great. Purchased by the H,O, and installed by the low bid though!.
    Never argue with a crazy man.

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    north suburbs of Chicago
    Posts
    513
    Quote Originally Posted by sweat hog View Post
    Looks great. Purchased by the H,O, and installed by the low bid though!.
    Thanks, I guess.

  9. #22
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Posts
    553

    Gas vs electric rates

    I am in Northern NJ about 16 miles west of NYC. We are paying about $1.25 for a therm of nat gas and we pay about 16 cents / kW in the winter for electric. I guess you would have to look at the performance table for the heat pump and calculate the cost per 1000 btus based on the AFUE of the unit.vs outdoor temperature and kW draw at a given outdoor/ indoor temp. Trane has nice expanded performance tables that will give you all the data you need to calculate at many different outdoor/indoor temps. I just installed a nice new low profile Thermopride variable speed oil fired furnace with a Trane XL16i heat pump and we set the balance point at 25 degrees. We think it may be a bit optomistic, however even if the balance point ends up being set at 30 degrees the oil here is about $3.50 / gallon vs the electric which is way cheaper. If the house has natural gas the 95% furnace is the way to go. If you can't get a 95% furnace in you may find that the heat pump may be cheaper for all times over 38-40 degrees. It really needs to be analyzed on a case by case basis based on utility cost, typical winter temps and oil or gas costs. Its always worth working it out on paper. And energy prices are not stable so it may not be cheaper now but may end up cheaper in the future.

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Baltimore MD and Ridgebury PA
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    542
    Quote Originally Posted by andrewd33 View Post
    I am in Northern NJ about 16 miles west of NYC. We are paying about $1.25 for a therm of nat gas and we pay about 16 cents / kW in the winter for electric. I guess you would have to look at the performance table for the heat pump and calculate the cost per 1000 btus based on the AFUE of the unit.vs outdoor temperature and kW draw at a given outdoor/ indoor temp. Trane has nice expanded performance tables that will give you all the data you need to calculate at many different outdoor/indoor temps. I just installed a nice new low profile Thermopride variable speed oil fired furnace with a Trane XL16i heat pump and we set the balance point at 25 degrees. We think it may be a bit optomistic, however even if the balance point ends up being set at 30 degrees the oil here is about $3.50 / gallon vs the electric which is way cheaper. If the house has natural gas the 95% furnace is the way to go. If you can't get a 95% furnace in you may find that the heat pump may be cheaper for all times over 38-40 degrees. It really needs to be analyzed on a case by case basis based on utility cost, typical winter temps and oil or gas costs. Its always worth working it out on paper. And energy prices are not stable so it may not be cheaper now but may end up cheaper in the future.
    and vice-versa. I will admit it's one of the more frustrating things about trying to calculate a HOs potential savings with various equipment options.

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    4,305
    Quote Originally Posted by platchford View Post
    That would certainly explain it. Might I inquire what electric rates and nat gas rates you have up there?
    15.4 cents per KWH
    85.5 cents per therm


    Also out electric utility pushed through legislation so they can install smart meters and send our rates through the roof. Unless of course you only run your appliances at night.

  12. #25
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    33,811
    Quote Originally Posted by craig1 View Post
    15.4 cents per KWH
    85.5 cents per therm
    With those numbers, gas can't be beat.

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Erie, PA
    Posts
    129
    In Erie,PA:
    7.03 cents /kilowatt hour
    62.4 /ccf

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