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Thread: why do owners

  1. #27
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    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
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    Originally posted by hvac45
    Hey Dash, long story, bad divorce, bad year in business last year for a number of reasons, the base closure scare last spring, to key employees walked out in the middle of summer to try and start there own thing. ( They thought I taught them everything). We had a real slow Dec., Jan. this year. Building a new shop that was to take 6 months and ended up taking 2 years. Being a single Dad to an 8 year old. But, I have slowly come back, Business is great, Like everyone though, I need more installers. I met a really great Lady and thats going good, I have been working a lot more and just haven't really had time to go on here. Plus I like to be upbeat on the site. For a long time I was to absorbed in my own life. I went thru a stage where I just wanted to be alone, I am finally starting to come out of it. I didn't even think anyone would remember me to be honest. Thanks for asking.

    Send me a email ,we have have found a way to get some RNC "trainable" installers,it might work for you too.

    Divorcved twice here,bought half the business twice ,plus one more time from the partner,so I know how it goes.

    I was lucky to survive since I paid for half three times.hehehe

    It's only money and you can make more,best revenge is living well!!

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Michigan
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    12,077
    Originally posted by hvac45
    Hey Dash, long story, bad divorce, bad year in business last year for a number of reasons, the base closure scare last spring, to key employees walked out in the middle of summer to try and start there own thing. ( They thought I taught them everything). We had a real slow Dec., Jan. this year. Building a new shop that was to take 6 months and ended up taking 2 years. Being a single Dad to an 8 year old. But, I have slowly come back, Business is great, Like everyone though, I need more installers. I met a really great Lady and thats going good, I have been working a lot more and just haven't really had time to go on here. Plus I like to be upbeat on the site. For a long time I was to absorbed in my own life. I went thru a stage where I just wanted to be alone, I am finally starting to come out of it. I didn't even think anyone would remember me to be honest. Thanks for asking.
    Damn Mike, thought you vanished off the face of the Earth. Good to hear your still fighting away. I hope your doing good.

  3. #29
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    Jan 2003
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    Beaufort, SC
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    Hey Dow, hope all is well. Same old story, need more installers, we finally got the new building finished. I have more new construction than I know what to do with. But, we'll get things done. 85 deg. today. I haven't had time to email Dash yet But I will. Take care Mike

  4. #30
    now look, i just need to vent and this is a good place!

    i have never been a "business owner" but i HAVE seen the inside operations of ALOT of businesses, i hear what they go through and see them dealing with vendors, suppliers, workers, etc.

    my current situation is this:
    the "v.p" is our "sales guy" who bids all these huge ass 7 story buildings at xxx timeframe, and xxx manhours.

    this guy has NEVER EVER worked "in the field". we have completed 3 floors of this bigass building in rockville, md in under a month, and this guy shows up and says:

    "i don't see alot of progress here". the same man that "don't want to talk to the employees cause it ain't my style"

    it pisses me off as an employee, and i seriously say that if YOU GUYS, YOU HVACTALK GUYS ever act like HIM as a business owner/operator...that i will buy a aerioplane ticket and fly to your town...call the local cabbie, get a ride to your house...ring the doorbell, and knock your sorry ass out!

    owners: give the workers a break WHEN EARNED!

    workers: stfu and keep working until you EARN the right to recieve a "break"!

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
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    Beaufort, SC
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    you are so right, I still do my time when **** hits the fan, I know, Dow does, I am pretty sure Dash does, and a bunch more. A true member of the company jumps out where needed, you are working for a bean counter. He is trying to cover his inability, now granted I will push my guys, but I really know how long a job should take so do a lot of people here. If you are getting used, move on. There are companies out there that truly appreciate what the people do. Keep looking you'll find it. Good luck, or come to South Carolina and find it.

  6. #32
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    Jun 2001
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    Michigan
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    12,077
    Originally posted by hvac45
    Hey Dow, hope all is well. Same old story, need more installers, we finally got the new building finished. I have more new construction than I know what to do with. But, we'll get things done. 85 deg. today. I haven't had time to email Dash yet But I will. Take care Mike
    awesome to hear from you, that's great you got the building done. The better looking half says HEY. stay in touch.

  7. #33
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    Oct 2003
    Location
    Minnesota
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    1,377
    Originally posted by dirtyboy103us
    why do owners try to cheap out on paying key people in their organizations.... with trust and loyalty so hard to find out there... when one of your key persons starts looking for something better its more than likely a dollar or two is not going to satisfy them after they find out their potential market value, myself i would feel like a friend had cheated me and my family an employer/employee relationship is like a marriage ... the trust would be gone like me!!
    Hmmm. This thread has been about talked out. And I've likely nothing worthwhile to contribute. However I just found and read the thread and simply can't resist the urge to make a few comments.

    First, I'm not an owner, nor some senior manager, etc. But I have been around a while, hopefully have at least average powers of observation, and have been both the low level worker bee and a supervisor of men and jobs.

    why do owners try to cheap out on paying key people in their organizations
    -SOME- owners indeed do this. Not all. In my observation such an attitude is most likely to be found in the cheap, fly-by-night, sleazy sort of businesses. Who mostly don't last long. At least not using the same name.

    And it's also found among some of the big corporations. Not all, but certainly some. And, generally speaking, the lower the level in the chain of command (hierarchy) you find a person "in charge" of an office, shop, department, branch or whatever who has a BA or BS or MBA degree and no field experience whatsoever AND his or her degree isn't in an engineering or technical one ... the more likely said corporation is to have the attitude you mention. In short, place where bean counters are so prevalent they've taken over even the production or operations side of the business. I've nothing in particular against bean counters, they have their usefulness. And any organizations that's sizeable can benefit from having one or more around. However as a general rule, true more often than not, bean counters should never be directly in charge of ... or supervise ... anything but spreadsheets and power point presentaions. They tend to be good number jugglers ... and absolutely horrible at exercising common sense, or dealing with or supervising field level activities or people.

    All that said, I'll move on to my thoughts about the rest of the businesses and owners.

    Most, I don't believe, have the attitude you mention. But they also aren't gonna pay a person more than they can afford. Or more than that person is truly worth to them. In REAL terms. ie Profit. A business that pays their workers more solely based upon sentiment and feelings, isn't gonna stay in business long. Yah can't just charge customers whatever yah feel like. "Mr Customer, sir, I know I'm charging yah 50% more than my competition. I wish I could say, and PROVE, to you that it's because my people do better work and provide better service than my competition. But, in honesty, I'd be lying if I said that. The truth is, they're okay. Average. But I pay em more because we're all buddies and I like em a lot on a personal basis. So I gotta charge you more for the job. You do understand, don't yah?"

    Hmmm. I don't think that flies to well with customers. Not with most of em, anyway. Wouldn't with me. If I'm gonna pay more, I have what I think is a reasonable expectation that the service is gonna be better. Or the product installed. Or the warranty/guarantee. Or SOMETHING ... needs to be better, if you're gonna ask me to pay extra. More than your competition is asking.

    Reality is, over time, in most things, I've settled upon certain people (companies) I deal with for this and that. And the fact is, none of those people/services are the cheapest. Not a one. They're also not the most expensive. I do okay, but I'm not a rich man. Each one of the businesses I deal with provides me with what I think is the best product and service available ... within the range of expense I'm willing and able to put out for that item.

    Each has distinguished themselves to me in some way. It varies dependent upon whom and what we're speaking. But each has provided me some reason to pay extra over the absolute bottom line cheapest I can get away with.

    Take my auto guy. Okay, I know Don has got his bottom line. He expects to make N percent on any particular job. And I know he pays his auto techs at least well enough so that they stay with him long term. Well, at least his good ones. Apprentices and newbies come and go. But his senior guys are in for the long haul and seem to like working for him. I see the same faces year in and year out. Don charges more than some, not as much as others. I could get my work done cheaper. BUT ... I trust Don and his guys. The do good, reliable work. The do it promptly, and well, and he backs up his guys' work. If somebody goofed or a new part fails, he makes good on it. He doesn't bull**** me, or anyone else. I do business with his place because I have a great deal of confidence I'm getting my money's worth. No worries.

    So, yeah, he bills accordingly. Not so high as to drive away business. But well enough so that, evidently, it's worth it to him personally to put in the long hours I know he works. And he obviously pays what he believes to be his KEY people, well enough so I haven't seen any of those guys disappear over the past 10 or so years. Except for the one who retired.

    BTW, what do yah mean when you say "key people"? To me it'd mean those people without whom the business can not function as normal. That is, continue to perform same level of business, service, and productivity while maintaining desired or required profit levels. That's a measureable definition. Anything that one can not reduce down to measureable quantities ... is an opinion, not a fact.

    Personally I've known, and supervised, a LOT of guys, at one time or another, who considered themselves to be "key people" ... who were no such thing. I could replace em. And did on a number of occassions.

    LOL ... heck, there has been a time or two I thought I was myself a "key person", and absolutely indespensible and someone an organization or group simply could not do without.

    I was wrong more times than I was right about that. ROFLMAO ... that's a real eye opener. When yah realize that maybe, just maybe ... that you're not quite so good nor so special as yah thought you were. Oh, I was good at what I did. Better than most. But as I learned many years ago in my later teens and early 20's .... there were more "replacements" for me who were just as good ... or better ... or guys who could quickly learn to be as good ... than I'd thought there were. I got what we used to call a "reality check". Several times. I wasn't quite as special as I thought I was, and could be replaced. Both by bosses, and by girlfriends.

    That kinda hurt, at first. But in the long run I found it to be a valueable lesson.

    No one was gonna keep me around "just because". Well, maybe my mother might have. But that was about it. And I was a mite old to be running back to momma so I could feel that "wanted" feeling, and have those feelings of security.

    A bit at a time, over time, I figured out that I was only as good as, as valueable as, I made myself every day. Even then, I was and am replaceable. More times than not. So I tried harder. Tackled most every job or task with my best effort. Kept trying every day to learn to do what I did a little better. Kept trying to learn more about the art and science of what I did. Kept trying to do my best and PROVE my worth to whomever I worked for.

    <Shrug> One isn't going to be "special" to everyone. In some cases, for whatever the reason ... whether it was my failure to distinguish myself or because my boss didn't like me or whatever, doesn't actually matter ... I wasn't offered a promotion or pay increase. So I'd eventually do whatever was necessary to "move on". To get work elsewhere or in a different shop or department. If no one was making me a better offer, I'd figure I was doing something wrong. Or that the "market" was what it was, for the kinda work I was doing. If the former, I tried harder. If the later I did what was necessary to shift fields or specialty within a field. Or geographical locations. Into field, subspecialty, or place that seemed to offer better opportunity. In a couple cases I deliberately shifted in a specialty where there was a shortage of people. And more than once I asked for and accepted work in places that pretty much sucked, for one reason or another. At least, there was a shortage of people with necessary skills who wanted to go there.

    Over time, it worked for me. I got to where I wanted to be, anyway. The proof of my "worth", to any particular boss being not my opinion. Rather it was the fact that this one or that thought it worth his while to boost my pay, or position, or send me for additional training, or whatever.

    <Shrug> If I didn't get what I thought I was worth, I surely didn't blame my boss. I figured I needed to improve self, or move on to another job. Sometimes move into a another field of work.

    Another point. Sometimes men stay in jobs, at particular ones, for reasons other than simply money. Sometimes it's not the bottom line of exactly how much money per hour they're getting. That is to say, some employers aren't pressed to pay the absolute top dollar to get the quality people that they desire. Good guys will stay with em for other reasons.

    ie Recently, where I work, we've had a spat of having competition hire away some of our people. They've lured away some of the good ones, too. Offering a few dollars more than we do.

    I won't say they were "key" people. Fact is we're still doing good business. Whether or not the folks who left were "key" people, stills remains to be proved one way or another. Several, are very good at what they do. Some others ... well, they think they're exceptional at what they do, but I might disagree. In any event, that those guys who left are actually "worth" the extra money they got is still to be proven. Time will tell. Maybe ... maybe not. I'm not gonna bad mouth all of em, as some of them I consider friends, and wish em the best. At the same time I'm gonna do my best to whup em when it comes to business.

    However, the thing is we had a number of folks who've stayed. Who the competition has tried hard, in some cases VERY hard ... to hire away. Why did they stay?

    In a couple cases, it was decided that the particular guys were in fact worth a couple extra dollars in their pay check. In other cases, guys didn't even ask for it. But weren't interested in leaving us either. The extra money offered by competition wasn't worth it to em. The like working where they do. Like the way we work, who they work with, type of work, and the work conditions.

    Employers don't necessarily keep people solely by the bottom line on the paycheck. Some folks, and not infrequently some very good folks at what they do, will also stay at a particular employer due to reasons beyond exact dollar amounts. ie I took a pass on an offer made by a competitor that would have had a significant impact on my take home pay. (An increase)

    Not that I'd mind some extra money. However, I make "enough". Enough so that I'm comfortable with the takehome. And the difference isn't enough to interest me given some other considerations. I happen to like the people I work with where I'm at. Like the atmosphere, the types of jobs, employer isn't tight fisted about providing needed tools and materials. Not free about it either. But show em good reasons, they'll get yah what yah need. They don't tend to micro-manage. Mid-level management down to field people are given a pretty fair amount of slack and leeway, and responsibility and authority, for managing their own jobs and the way they go about them. Etc.

    Liking where I work, and whom I work for, counts for a lot actually. <Shrug> Here, they may piss me off some time in the future, I don't know ... my crystal ball isn't working so well these days, but for now ... I like the job, working conditions, the place, and the people (most of em). So I'm not inclined to be moving. Tho if the difference offered was a LOT ... heck, I might consider it.

    Maybe. But not from the outfit that made most recent offer to me. I know some about em. And I'm thinking they haven't got enough money to make me WANT to work for em. I won't go into all the details, suffice it to say they pay better than most ... but keep losing people. Several of their ex-employees are people I know. Who pretty much figured that the management and working enviornment of the place just simply sucks.

    Just some general thoughts I've had reading this thread.

    Fact is, market place often drives wages. A business that can't attract people of the quality that particular business needs in order to do business ... is gonna fold. It's that simple. One which pays employees more than they can afford given what local customers are willing to pay for the products and services ... isn't gonna make enough profit to stay in business.

    It's pretty much as simple as that.

    If you are, in fact, severely under-paid, it should be really easy for yah to find someone who'll pay you more ... what you think you're worth.

    If they're not making that kinda offer to you ... well, think about it. Maybe it's time to start your own business, move locales to a better one where there is more and better paying business, or time to change your field of work, ... or maybe your opinion of your worth ... is just your opinion but doesn't reflect reality.

    Not a slam at yah. Hell, I don't know yah. Besides, a few times in my own life I found out I wasn't nearly so good as I'd thought I was at the time.



  8. #34
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    Jan 2003
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    Beaufort, SC
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    Very good post.

  9. #35
    There is no such thing as loyalty anymore.

    An employer is a necessary evil, in MOST CASES!

    And they are the cause of this dilema.


    sad but true.

  10. #36
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    Austin, Texas
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    [

    [Edited by rickl on 04-12-2006 at 09:11 AM]

  11. #37
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    Jul 2005
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    FLORIDA
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    well I'm back and now the proud owner of a passed contractors
    exam with the opportunity to build it and hope they come or call or what ever... i will see how much trouble it really is
    and all the risks involved in starting a business
    and what i have to offer the business world
    i figure it will take me at least a complete year to raise
    enough capital and accounts and a business plan to start
    and have a good start

    i will not be anyone's employee ... now i will be their competition


    Florida A contractors exam
    once you think you've seen it all
    (THINK AGAIN)
    I would rather work for free than be look upon as a thief!!!!!

  12. #38
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    right, here! in the heartland of the homeland!
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    HEAVEN FORBID

    Originally posted by dirtyboy103us
    why do owners try to cheap out on paying key people in their organizations.... with trust and loyalty so hard to find out there... when one of your key persons starts looking for something better its more than likely a dollar or two is not going to satisfy them after they find out their potential market value, myself i would feel like a friend had cheated me and my family an employer/employee relationship is like a marriage ... the trust would be gone like me!!
    IF THE SHOE WAS ON THE OTHER FOOT? WOW , FORGET ABOUT IT!

  13. #39
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    Jan 2004
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    Earth
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    I pay people what they are worth (or as close as possible). Also I give them as a team 10% of the net. I call it the "one team bonus". Right now many of my employees are overpaid, that was my choice. I will either teach them to be better, or if I can't they will be down the road. You know what they say, Change the people, or change the people.

    When an A/C God walks into my office and tells me how much they are worth, I ask them use a drum of R-22 in my office and tell me the temperature in the office. Care to guess how many can? Not many.

    If they can and can go anywhere and fix anything they will get $25.00 per hr easy. Now it's up to them and go out and keep it. If they can't, they won't work for me very long.

    Prima donna's need not apply.

    P.S. It seems that the guys who think they are great are the ones my customers tell me don't know what they are doing.

    When you are really that good you will get what you earn where ever you go.
    A Diamond is just a piece of coal, that made good under pressure!

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