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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Southern Pennsylvania
    Posts
    5

    Question Help understanding interaction of options on Climatemaster ATP32U03/4 Thermostats

    I have a one year old Geo system that is performing fantastically but am having trouble getting proper control of it through the thermostat to use it most efficiently. it was installed with a Honeywell VisionPro thermostat that I quickly realized was not really suited to it and was obviously designed with conventional heat pumps in mind. I had the dealer install a Climatemaster which has many more control options and now I'm trying to experiment with them and find the best options for our needs and the abilities of the system. The installation manual has reasonable descriptions but either I am misunderstanding them, they don't work as described, or perhaps the optional functions are stepping on each other.
    For starters, I am using the differential temperature algorithm with the differentials set at 1-3-4. By my understanding this means that if the set point is 69, the unit should use first stage heating at a temp of 68, second stage if the temp drops to 65, and auxillary electric if it falls to 61. But the system is using second stage if the temp is 67 or below. The first number works like I expect. For example, if I change it to 3, the system won't call for heat until the temp drops to 66 from 69, but the second number doesn't seem to be working. I do not have smart recovery on at the moment and I don't see anything else that should override the differentials? Can anyone help? I have a BS in chem and a minor in Physics so don't be afraid to be technical.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    6,841
    There can be more to this than any DIY person should tackle. It may not be just the thermostat that needs programming. There are wire connections at the HP that also come into play. You need to get your installing contractor out and get this resolved. ClimateMaster has both CXM and DXM control boards. They also have multiple thermostats from which to choose. You have not specified which board you have nor what ClimateMaster t-stat you have. Thus, it's impossible to provide sound advice, except to say that your contractor needs to be deeply involved at this juncture. If he/she is unable to figure it out, then he/she should call the ClimateMaster tech services for assistance so that you, the customer, are properly cared for.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Southern Pennsylvania
    Posts
    5

    Confused More detail and history. Hope you hang in a little longer.

    UGH! First and foremost thanks so much for responding and providing more clarity for me, even if it wasn't what I was hoping to hear. First, just in case I wasn't clear, I have no desire to do anything DIY here. I just want to be able to use the controls on the thermostat to get the most efficient use of the system. I hear you about the installers and I do intend to get the installers back in here but hopefully you will hang in a little longer and let me give you some history and more details. When I DO get them back in the game I would like to have as much information as possible to evaluate what happens. You will see why in a minute.

    Details on what I have been told is installed.

    Carrier 50XDV049JCB301 Geo Heat Pump plant.
    Climatemaster 433J Thermostat. (the manual says it is ATP32U03 or 04 Programmable.

    The original installation included a Honeywell Vision Pro TH8321V1003 thermostat. This thermostat was energy star approved and was PRESET to a daytime comfort level of 70 and a nightime conservation level of 62. When heating was called for, even when in it's supposed "intelligent" mode, it would bail on the Geo system and turn on electric heat five minutes after starting even if the temperature differential was only 2 degrees. This didn't seem practical given I spent more than 20,000 for green technology. I was told that Geo systems dont do well with large nightime setbacks and I should turn the system on and just leave it at a constant temperature. That was totally inconsistent with the goals we set. After a couple months of wrangling they finally told me if I wanted to experiment I could turn off the breakers to the auxillary electric coils and it wouldn't hurt anything. The system would just do what I wanted--heat my house with the geo heat plant. However, I would not have electric backup in an emergency. So I did experiments this way and tracked my electric meter readings and outdoor temps for a month or two and quickly proved to myself that my understanding of enthalpy and entropy from college days was still valid and at least with my system, any view that leaving the system at one temp was more energy efficient than a large setback that was recovered over an hour or two completely by the geo plant was pure nonsense.

    They then told me there was no way to lock out the electric and still have safety backup as I wished, even with Climatemaster thermostats, which they said were the best available. Eventually I got them to recommend the best one possible and I downloaded a manual off the internet. I quickly found at least four ways it would keep my system from using electric heat in reasonable scenarios and still allow emergency backup.

    This is why I am out here on the internet right now. I don't have a great deal of confidence that the people I'm dealing with understand the Science here. I have had no reason to think they aren't very good at sizing, installing, and maintaining the equipment, but I think they are caving to the vast majority of residential customers who might like to say they want to go green but want the temperature to be exactly what the thermostat is set at 100% of the time. I was told at one point they get hundreds of calls from people who say their system isn't working because at 6AM the thermostat was programmed to recover to 70 from 68 and five minutes later it is still 68.

    I understand that but that isn't me. I REALLY want a green system and I want my bedroom cold at night in the winter. So now I have the climatemaster and it sounds like you are telling me it expects to be talking to something at the heat plant that is also a climatemaster electronic interface. Since I have a Carrier, and I was here when they installed the Climatemaster thermostat, I know for certain nothing was installed elsewhere in my system so I would say that the thermostat is talking to carrier equipment at that end. So now I am wondering if I have paid a big pile of bucks for a super thermostat that can't be made to work correctly with a carrier system?

    Please tell me it isn't so! Although it would explain the other funny things I see. If I turn on smart recovery it goes to stage 2 after five minutes no matter what the differential it is recovering and it doesn't seem to learn anything over time. It keeps responding in the same way, even though it is getting to the recovery point way early.

    Also, in addition to the differential algorithm not performing as the manual indicates, the proportional Integral algorithm is supposed to destage as the demand is satisfied, but it to will not destage from second stage to first stage until it is within one degree of the target. None of this seems to make sense to me. A limited number of long cycles should be the most efficient for a geo system, so why blow through stage one so quickly?

    Any more info or clarification you can provide would be appreciated. And then I have a phone call to make.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Northern VA 38 degrees N by 76 degrees W
    Posts
    5,060
    Quote Originally Posted by parandyb View Post
    UGH! First and foremost thanks so much for responding and providing more clarity for me, even if it wasn't what I was hoping to hear. First, just in case I wasn't clear, I have no desire to do anything DIY here. I just want to be able to use the controls on the thermostat to get the most efficient use of the system. I hear you about the installers and I do intend to get the installers back in here but hopefully you will hang in a little longer and let me give you some history and more details. When I DO get them back in the game I would like to have as much information as possible to evaluate what happens. You will see why in a minute.

    Details on what I have been told is installed.

    Carrier 50XDV049JCB301 Geo Heat Pump plant.
    Climatemaster 433J Thermostat. (the manual says it is ATP32U03 or 04 Programmable.

    The original installation included a Honeywell Vision Pro TH8321V1003 thermostat. This thermostat was energy star approved and was PRESET to a daytime comfort level of 70 and a nightime conservation level of 62. When heating was called for, even when in it's supposed "intelligent" mode, it would bail on the Geo system and turn on electric heat five minutes after starting even if the temperature differential was only 2 degrees. This didn't seem practical given I spent more than 20,000 for green technology. I was told that Geo systems dont do well with large nightime setbacks and I should turn the system on and just leave it at a constant temperature. That was totally inconsistent with the goals we set. After a couple months of wrangling they finally told me if I wanted to experiment I could turn off the breakers to the auxillary electric coils and it wouldn't hurt anything. The system would just do what I wanted--heat my house with the geo heat plant. However, I would not have electric backup in an emergency. So I did experiments this way and tracked my electric meter readings and outdoor temps for a month or two and quickly proved to myself that my understanding of enthalpy and entropy from college days was still valid and at least with my system, any view that leaving the system at one temp was more energy efficient than a large setback that was recovered over an hour or two completely by the geo plant was pure nonsense.

    They then told me there was no way to lock out the electric and still have safety backup as I wished, even with Climatemaster thermostats, which they said were the best available. Eventually I got them to recommend the best one possible and I downloaded a manual off the internet. I quickly found at least four ways it would keep my system from using electric heat in reasonable scenarios and still allow emergency backup.

    This is why I am out here on the internet right now. I don't have a great deal of confidence that the people I'm dealing with understand the Science here. I have had no reason to think they aren't very good at sizing, installing, and maintaining the equipment, but I think they are caving to the vast majority of residential customers who might like to say they want to go green but want the temperature to be exactly what the thermostat is set at 100% of the time. I was told at one point they get hundreds of calls from people who say their system isn't working because at 6AM the thermostat was programmed to recover to 70 from 68 and five minutes later it is still 68.

    I understand that but that isn't me. I REALLY want a green system and I want my bedroom cold at night in the winter. So now I have the climatemaster and it sounds like you are telling me it expects to be talking to something at the heat plant that is also a climatemaster electronic interface. Since I have a Carrier, and I was here when they installed the Climatemaster thermostat, I know for certain nothing was installed elsewhere in my system so I would say that the thermostat is talking to carrier equipment at that end. So now I am wondering if I have paid a big pile of bucks for a super thermostat that can't be made to work correctly with a carrier system?

    Please tell me it isn't so! Although it would explain the other funny things I see. If I turn on smart recovery it goes to stage 2 after five minutes no matter what the differential it is recovering and it doesn't seem to learn anything over time. It keeps responding in the same way, even though it is getting to the recovery point way early.

    Also, in addition to the differential algorithm not performing as the manual indicates, the proportional Integral algorithm is supposed to destage as the demand is satisfied, but it to will not destage from second stage to first stage until it is within one degree of the target. None of this seems to make sense to me. A limited number of long cycles should be the most efficient for a geo system, so why blow through stage one so quickly?

    Any more info or clarification you can provide would be appreciated. And then I have a phone call to make.
    See if "smart heat staging" needs to be set to off or time limit increased from 5 to 120 minutes. Even tho it states during smart recovery that auxiliary wont be used.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
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    68,555
    HVAC Systems.

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  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Southern Pennsylvania
    Posts
    5

    Smart Heat Staging/Electric Heat lockout

    I'm a bit obsessive at this point about keeping the electric heat from activating so I already have Smart Heat Staging on and set to 120 minutes and I have an outdoor sensor that locks out the Electric Heat unless the temp drops way below freezing-which hasn't happened.

    But the Electric heat isn't being used and that isn't my real concern now. I just don't seem to be able to make the system recover more slowly on stage one, which I found was more efficient last winter by experimenting using more manual control.

    If I could get the differential algorithm to use a 1-3-4 configuration in the manner I interpret it should I would be very happy, but it just doesn't seem to cooperate.

    Just to complete the info I also have the system set at 4 cycles per hour.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Southern Pennsylvania
    Posts
    5

    Solution!

    I believe I have found the answer to my problem so I'm going to post this update so the thread doesn't hang here unanswered. I believe I was confused by the way the manual presents the information on the differential algorithm. What I wrote at the beginning of the thread is the way it presents it however, my situation is a bit different from the example in the book. The manual refers to the temperature 'dropping' to a level below the set point. What I am experiencing is a change in the programmed period that causes the temperature to suddenly be far below the set point. So what is happening is that if the difference is more than four degrees at my settings, the thermostat engages second stage heat. Since this algorithm says it will not de-stage as the demand is fulfilled, it therefore uses stage 2 the whole way to the set point. If the difference in temperature is less than 4 degrees, it uses stage one the whole way to the set point.

    Not very logical as far as I'm concerned, but consistent with the manual.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    6,841
    What you've last described parandyb is the most conventional way of heat pumps to deal with step-up demands after a lengthy, programmed lower temperature. This can also be true for air-to-air systems recovering from the defrost mode. When in defrost (cooling) mode, the aux. heaters (could electric, gas or oil) are turned on. After the defrost is terminated and the HP reverts to heating mode, the aux. heaters will remain on until the call for heat is satisfied, at which point the use of aux heaters will again be dictated by temperature demands. The moral to the story is to no set-back more than a couple of degrees!

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Southern Pennsylvania
    Posts
    5

    HUH???


    Deja Vu! I seem to always come back to this point. Everyone in the business says don't set the thermostat down more than a few degrees. But your description above doesn't hold here. This Climate master thermostat has at least four ways for me to avoid use of the electric auxiliary no matter what the algorithm may decide I have an outdoor sensor set to lock out the aux heat if the outdoor sensor reads more than 15 degrees. Smart heat recovery will refuse to use auxiliary heat no matter what it faces. Smart heat staging will lock out auxilliary electric heat for up to two hours after the thermostat normally calls for it, and the differential algorithm allows you to lock it out unless the temperature differential is higher than 12 degrees.

    Why would anyone want to heat there house within two degrees of their comfort level for long periods when they either don't need to or don't want to with this thermostat and a geo system?

    I understand why you don't set things back substantially with an external air heat pump. They just can't recover. But this system can recover without electric auxilliary heat from 10-15 degrees below the set point in a matter of 2 or 3 hours. Why do the professionals in this industry keep insisting these systems aren't efficient and effective when they are selling them? Especially whent it is clear to me that they are efficent and effective. I've tracked the system on a daily basis against the meter readings. It is much more efficient to set back a significant amount at night and force the system to recover without auxilliary heat than it is to leave the house warm all night and all day while at work.

    How ironic that we have a green energy source that works best and most efficiently when you allow it to cycle for long periods when apparently the entire society is unwilling to wait more than two minutes for the temperature to change.

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