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  1. #53
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    230
    Under the topic "Vertical Terminations"

    Standard Vertical Terminations

    Exhaust Vent Terminations

    The 2" vent must be reduced to 1-1/2" for the last 12" for the 60,000 and 75,000 models.

    That may be why you're not having issues with the excessive 2" length because the termination is too large. So, do two wrongs make a right?

  2. #54
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,680
    Ok thanks for the great pics and details. At least we now know its a roof vent - sorry if I was confusing the issue earlier. Single pipe is ok provided the space the furnace is in meets the criteria in the book on page 14 - 16 of the installation instructions and dont forget to include the water heater if there is one in your calculations.

    In that application however it must all be 3" pipe (except beginning and end)

    Each elbow, as pointed out is counted regardless if its a 45 or a 90. You have 6. You will need to leave the 2" pipe going through the roof and reduce it before it goes out. This is good because you dont have to re-flash the roof. You dont have to reduce to 1 1/2", thats for horizontal.

    Buy them a can of clear primer.

    [Edited by docholiday on 02-16-2006 at 11:48 AM]

  3. #55
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    Posts
    70
    Originally posted by htrguy
    Under the topic "Vertical Terminations"

    Standard Vertical Terminations

    Exhaust Vent Terminations

    The 2" vent must be reduced to 1-1/2" for the last 12" for the 60,000 and 75,000 models.

    That may be why you're not having issues with the excessive 2" length because the termination is too large. So, do two wrongs make a right?
    Aha, I finally found this in the instructions, but this note on the 60,000 and 75,000 models appears only for the Direct vent pipe installations. This note does not appear after the through-the-roof instructions for the Non-Direct vent installation. Do you agree with this?

    Though, your point is well-taken, this factor may be helping out with the pressure drop on my system. Would there be advantages to a Direct vent installation versus the Non-Direct vent (other than the obvious things like chlorine bleach fumes, etc.)?


  4. #56

    Horizontal TErmination Single Pipe

    Jeff

    Does your installaion book talk about Non-Direct Vent Sigle Pipe Horizontal Termination. See if you have a diagram showing a Sigle Pipe comming out the side of the house.

    regards,
    Kelvin Lyons

  5. #57
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    Posts
    70
    Originally posted by docholiday
    Ok thanks for the great pics and details. At least we now know its a roof vent - sorry if I was confusing the issue earlier. Single pipe is ok provided the space the furnace is in meets the criteria in the book on page 14 - 16 of the installation instructions and dont forget to include the water heater if there is one in your calculations.

    In that application however it must all be 3" pipe (except beginning and end)

    Each elbow, as pointed out is counted regardless if its a 45 or a 90. You have 6. You will need to leave the 2" pipe going through the roof and reduce it before it goes out. This is good because you dont have to re-flash the roof. You dont have to reduce to 1 1/2", thats for horizontal.

    Buy them a can of clear primer.

    [Edited by docholiday on 02-16-2006 at 11:48 AM]
    Many thanks! I'll check the water heater capacity. I'd buy them clear primer, but, you know, they are probably Vikings fans and would use the purple anyway..

    So, I am being a bit anal, but are there big advantages to the Direct-vent installation versus what I have? It would not be too difficult to run a horizontal inlet to this furnace (though it would come out over the rear patio sidewalk). Going vertical would be more problematic, with lots of twists and turns (like the existing exhaust vent). Perhaps I am best off to just get the existing system up to snuff?!


  6. #58
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    Posts
    70

    Re: Horizontal TErmination Single Pipe

    Originally posted by klyons20
    Jeff

    Does your installaion book talk about Non-Direct Vent Sigle Pipe Horizontal Termination. See if you have a diagram showing a Sigle Pipe comming out the side of the house.

    regards,
    Kelvin Lyons
    Dear Kevin:

    The book says "Non-Direct Vent Pipe Installation (For Vertical Terminations Only)". So, Non-Direct Vent Single Pipe Horizontal Termination does not seem to be allowed.

    Thanks,
    Jeff

  7. #59
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    344

    Primer

    For what its worth, some local codes require blue primer as a visual indicator that a primer has been used.

    Best regards...

  8. #60

    None direct Vent

    I talked to the Rudd tech page 19 this furnace can not be used in a sigle pipe horizontal installation.

    You see I learn something every day. Thats why I mess around with you folks.

    regards,
    Kelvin

  9. #61
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,042
    The other advantage of running a dedicated combustion air intake for the furnace is that the mechanical room won't get so cold when the furnace is running! Instead of having that cold air come through the whole mechanical room, you could pipe it straight to the combustion chamber. Then your existing air intake would only be bringing in enough air to fire the water heater. I know it's just a mechanical room, but the temperature of that room has some bearing on energy efficiency. The ambient temp that you expose the water pipes, ducts, etc., to matters. That mechanical room may adjoin heated space, too, and without insulation between the heated space and the mech room you are still losing some heat into that cold room.

    [Edited by wyounger on 02-16-2006 at 01:07 PM]

  10. #62
    Originally posted by wyounger
    The other advantage of running a dedicated combustion air intake for the furnace is that the mechanical room won't get so cold when the furnace is running! Instead of having that cold air come through the whole mechanical room, you could pipe it straight to the combustion chamber. Then your existing air intake would only be bringing in enough air to fire the water heater. I know it's just a mechanical room, but the temperature of that room has some bearing on energy efficiency. The ambient temp that you expose the water pipes, ducts, etc., to matters. That mechanical room may adjoin heated space, too, and without insulation between the heated space and the mech room you are still losing some heat into that cold room.

    [Edited by wyounger on 02-16-2006 at 01:07 PM]
    Is there an advantage in running intake air through a concentric to provide pre-heating before the air arrives at the combustion box? Or, isn't there enough heat transfer being accomplished within the concentric? Just curious.

  11. #63
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,680
    PVC is a great insulator, nothing along those lines happens, the concentric just allows 1 hole and assures no recirculation.

    He's ok with one, although that is not the preferred method, it is acceptable for a vertical termination. Again that all hinges on whether or not there is sufficient combusition air avaialbe in that space.

    If you ever watch a 90+ vent you see there is significant flow coming out the vent when it runs. Just remember that comes from somewhere and sooner or later, that same volume of air is coming into the house and being conditioned. On a mod, which has longer run times, you are really being counterproductive to run one pipe because you are constantly venting. Single pipe is used striclty as a matter of convinience for the installer.

    Installing a fresh air out the side while the vent is going through the roof is also a no-no. You cant have them terminating in different pressure zones. If you decide you can do that, then just put them both out through the sidewall.

  12. #64
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,680

    Re: None direct Vent

    Originally posted by klyons20
    I talked to the Rudd tech page 19...
    Did it talk back to you?

  13. #65

    ventilation

    I notice in all the new homes built here in Michigan. A 4 to 6" vent pipe is required to bring make up air into the house.

    Now this air can be used as combustion air, fresh air, etc.

    So, if you use a two-pipe system. You still are going to have to bring in make up air. We know this make up air rate is based on size and type of building and how many people that occupy the building.

    Ventilation can be provided in many different ways.
    It could be as simple as opening a window.

    If you run a single pipe or 2-pipe system it all depends on you furnace, and location of install.

    Regards,
    Kelvin

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