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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
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    876
    Or do you see it coming? The owner is now outsourcing programming and engineering. Their next meeting is to find Indians to do the Tridium. We'll jsut be around to upload and work out bugs.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Virginia
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    Are you part of a private company?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Minnesota
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    1,376
    Originally posted by incontrol
    Or do you see it coming? The owner is now outsourcing programming and engineering. Their next meeting is to find Indians to do the Tridium. We'll jsut be around to upload and work out bugs.
    Hmmmm. No, not being outsourced at this time, nor do I see it coming ... at this time.

    Is it something that could NEVER happen to me? I gave up trying to be psychic a long time ago and threw away my crystal ball. And have never been much given to stating that something or other is impossible.

    But, for us, outsourcing is unlikely. Due to the way we work, type of jobs we go after, and type of product (and services) we offer.

    If the product and/or services one offers can be done by just anyone, from any location, and the results are the same, or essentially so ... <Shrug> then sooner or later your job will likely go to whomever offers the best bang for the buck. (Quality of Product as compared to Cost of Product) Notice I avoid saying something like "best job", "best product", etc as those are more often than not strictly subjective as versus objective terms. Besides which not all customers/buyers want the "best" in any particular purchase. Sometimes one buys whatever will fulfill a particular need, want, or requirement "adequately and reliably", and that is quite good enough. And one isn't going to spend more than what it takes to meet that specification.

    So, I guess if your job entails something that you spend a significant amount of time doing, that could be done just as well by somebody several thousand miles away, at a significant cost reduction ... you probably should worry about outsourcing.

    But there isn't much new about that. Farmers have been loosing their jobs and their farms for over a century to the bigger, and/or more efficient farmers or Agricultural Corporations. Local slaughter houses and butchers have lost work to far distant places and people who could perform same services at a price that made shipping the product back again cost effective since the later 1800's. And so forth. In Minnesota jobs have been lost in the greater metro area due to "outsourcing" ... to smaller, rural towns and peoples within Minnesota. Unions lose work to non-union companies regularly. Etc. Which if one looks at it a certain way, is just another form of "outsourcing". Really, "outsourcing" just means that somebody else, from somewhere else (different company, different county or state, or different country) can do what you do, acceptably well but cheaper, and got work which you used to do. End result is the same. In reality.

    So if what yah do can be "outsourced", a cost savings realized and end product or service essentially remains the same, any of us mght be "outsourced" sometime or other.

    In the case of my work and job, little of it can be effectively "outsourced" which has not already occurred. The company for whom I work, type of jobs we most actively seek and compete for, and so forth (as concerns controls work) is not the type of stuff (specs and required sequences of operation) which can easily or readily be done by just anyone, from anywhere, or by some boiler plated, pre-packaged, cookie cutter software package. Much of the work is customized, one of a kind creations, which exactly matches only a single installation/building and it's existing equipment. And matches the requirements of exacting customers who know what they want, specifically. And demand THAT. And aren't willing to take some generic substitute. If what we do could be done by some ready made, off the shelf package, or by substituting some fancy digital thermostat ... we'd likely be out of a job. Since in those sort of jobs there are many bidders and competitors and alternatives; many of which are cheaper than we are.

    We specialize in customized jobs with exacting and detailed specs. Where having live engineers, or engineering techs, on site and on the scene is a regular necessity. Where cookie cutter solutions aren't adequate to the customer's needs or wants. And even at that, our commissioning and testing techs routinely and regularly have to perform field engineering and plan/programming modifications and customizations on site. Because the engineers, even with site visits in person, often miss or overlook something, or their first ideas don't work to produce the results the customer (or customer's hired achitect/engineer) expects and demands.

    Routine, cookie cutter, programming and setups are done by our "back office". An in-house engineering group. And most of the routine, boring ... most anyone could do it ... but time consuming tasks they've figured out ways to automate, or made shortcut methods, or otherwise streamlined so that they can accomplish them very quickly. Buying pre-programmed or setup stuff from the factory, in fact, is something we virtually never do and it's not necessary or cost effective for us to do. We can do such cookie-cutter operations in-house as fast, easily, and cost effective. In many cases, even cheaper and faster.

    Remember the discussion about whether strictly going the function block, GUI drag and drop programming route was as fast and effective as knowing how to do line code programming? It's not, IF you have staff who knows their stuff. We've taken a lot of the routine, time consuming effort out of many things. It requires a higher level of knowledge and skill. But we do have the folks with the necessary talent. We routinely employ automated VBA scripts; custom, standalone, single purpose programs written in everything from a form of Basic to C/C++ or whatever, and so forth to accomplish those tasks that might readily be done by a low paid, nominally skilled person who lives a long way from the job site. We also employ methods and techniques designed to make this effort easier and faster, and to keep an individual worker from having to "reinvent the wheel" on any particular job. In short, we have a plan and methodology designed and meant to eliminate or reduce time spent on repetitive, no-brainer (most anyone can do it) tasks.

    In any event, since the majority of MY particular jobs is geared towards actually getting the job installed, tweaked and tuned and working properly (according to customer's specs and expectations ... not ours, not the DDC equipment manufacturer's), and final documentation and support package done (BOM's, etc), I'm not too concerned about outsourcing. Most of what I do requires someone ON SITE often and regularly, so I just worry about the other local guys who might do what I do as well or better. And that's life. I gotta compete. Like most folks. And, personally, I don't give a rip whether guys I'm competing against are white, black, brown, red, speak with an accent, or weren't originally born in this country. Makes no difference to me, I'll either match em or beat em ... or figure it's time to go find another line of work as I'm obviously not up to the requirements of this one.

    Just my opinion, worth no more.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    45th Parallel
    Posts
    954
    Osiyo, just curious, this has nothing to do with the OP but, How many words do you type per/min? Not giving ya hard time, just curious. It would take me all nite to type responses like you do. I do enjoy your responses also, very informative.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    453
    Our branch was just informed to start using the services of our branch office in India for graphics. The price is $18.00 US dollars per hour.

    The last financial meeting I attended the dollars on the power point was in euro's.

    I voted for Ross...

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Minnesota
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    1,376
    Originally posted by drivewizard
    Osiyo, just curious, this has nothing to do with the OP but, How many words do you type per/min? Not giving ya hard time, just curious. It would take me all nite to type responses like you do. I do enjoy your responses also, very informative.
    Hmmm. I don't actually know. Haven't measured it, nor had a reason to do so. Nor have I ever had a typing class.

    Now my wife has had typing classes, years ago. And she tells me she was second best in her class. She's kept up her skills all these years, one of the things I bought her for her first birthday after we were married was her own typewriter. And she's used the skill from time to time in various jobs.

    I do know I can type fast enough to keep up with her, easily.

    But I'm no super typist. Won't win any speed competitions.

    When typing posts, it probably doesn't take me as long as you might think. Besides at least reasonable typing speed, for informal communications I have the unfortunate habit of not composing, editing, or error checking what I type and just bang away saying the first things off the top of my head, as fast as the thoughts occur to me.

    Thus a lot of my posts are not only lenghty, they're poorly written and riddled with errors. Sorry.

    Now, the posts do sometimes take a while before I hit the "Send" button, as I'll start typing something then stop and go do something else. Come back to the post later and continue. Regularly somebody pops up an IM on my screen (family or close friend). Or my kids (all adults) and/or my grandkids are over and "Poppa" has got to stop because somebody just plunked in his lap or is otherwise demanding attention. Or it's one of our foster kids. Or one of the dogs (3 of em), or the durned cat, or it's time to take care of the bird, or the fish. Or somebody needs to know something, or they have something they want me to fix. It seems I must be considered the local "Mr Fixit" by family, friends, and neighbors. <Shrug> I don't mind helping folks. Tho sometimes it can get a bit much. Especially as my wife knows a LOT of people, and is forever volunteering my services. I have yet another computer, for instance, currently sitting on the floor next to my desk I need to look at. Which belongs to some single, handicapped gal my wife knows. It's full of virii and adware, so much so that it's bogged down too much to be useful. It arrived last night. I took a quick glance and decided it's past recovery. So I'll just reformat and start reinstallation of software. Browsed thru the files using UBCD4Win and a file manager and have been copying over gal's doc's and digital photoes, so that she won't lose things important to her, and in fact have those files burning to CD as I type this. Helped a neice last night by doing a brake job for her (student nurse, money is tight). Add my regular household chores. My own wife is handicapped, can do some things, but I help with dishwashing, laundry, housecleaning.

    LOL ... words that make me cringe. My wife on the phone with someone, and I overhear her saying, "Oh, nonsense, Bob will be happy to help, it's no bother."

    Words which result in most anything from computer repairs, to my climbing into someone's septic tank or lift pump "Honey Pit" to clean or replace a pump, to fixing a furnace, replacing a breaker, doing brake job on a car, dragging out oxy-acteylene rig or circular saw, or hitching up trailer and lending strong back and weak mind to a moving chore, etc.

    ROFLMAO ... I love her dearly, but she can sometimes be a pain. FWIW, in many cases the things she wants me to help someone with, if they're not a relative or long time very close friend, it's mostly someone she knows who is handicapped or poor. Kinda makes it hard for me to say "No". And she knows it. As does her Pastor. Who has these things figured out. If he knows of someone in need, he calls her and asks if she knows anyone who might help? Somehow or other, my name seems to come up a lot.

    Ah well. Such is life. At least it keeps me busy and out of trouble.


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    1,376
    Originally posted by mackinaw
    Our branch was just informed to start using the services of our branch office in India for graphics. The price is $18.00 US dollars per hour.

    The last financial meeting I attended the dollars on the power point was in euro's.

    I voted for Ross...
    <Shrug> If they can do an adequate job of it, I'd suppose it's reasonable.

    We have found outsourcing such to be less than satisfactory. We didn't outsource the work to India, just outside of the company. For a while. But what we'd get was not what we wanted (not exactly), and it regularly had binding errors. Sending screens back and forth for changes and error correction, especially as the need for such was at the end of a job when we are in a hurry to close out job, get paid, and move on to the next was a pain. And we'd end up with lead automation tech for that job doing his own final edits and fixes.

    So we brought it back in-house. But use a "Graphics" person we hired. She does automation control screens, and CAD. And we've enough work to keep her plenty busy. On an hourly pay basis, she's cheaper than a journeyman electrician or pipefitter (all our techs are one or the other). Tho she's paid well compared to the average of those with like profession. And she's a LOT faster at it. And very accurate. Once she's learned exactly what you expect and want. We have a formal, written "standards" for our automation screens, which we insist be followed. It covers appearance of graphics themselves, screen resolutions, color themes, placement of components on screens, fonts and font sizing, etc. Job lead tech usually still ends up making some changes during final phases of the job, but they're far fewer and tend to be minor or the result of a change order and change in job itself. If there are to be major changes, lots of em, she does it. Again, she does this for a living and has a 2 year tech degree in it. She's very good and very fast. Being in-house, we have some control. So if a job is at the ending phase and a significant changes need made, and quickly, no problem. I've had times when from a job site I've got her on phone, explained problems while we were both looking at copies of screens. Hung up, and then a couple hours later she'd call back, bunch of major revisions accomplished, and she'd be asking for IP or phone number she could use to get revised screens to me right now. I'd download and dump em on customer's front end, and we were in business. I no longer needed to have myself or a tech return to site for some graphics issue. And they were RIGHT.

    However, if one doesn't have the in-house talent of that level of expertise, and/or not enough work of that sort to keep em busy full time, outsourcing ... across town or to India ... may well make sense.

    Chuckle, I have a friend who has a small 5 man operation of his own going. He "outsources" his graphics work to his wife, who's at home with the small kids. She set herself up as independent contractor, and he pays her as such. In fact she bids on the work like anyone else. Almost always her bids come in lower. But she has motivation to do so. Wanted some way to work while still staying home to tend the little ones. CAD background. Didn't take her long to learn and become very quick at the work of making screens for his automation jobs.


  8. #8
    Interesting thread.

    Sometimes management, in the quest for efficiency, forgets about effectiveness. In other words what can save a buck in one area, costs a buck and a half in another.

    I was with a large company that outsourced it's expense management to India. What a deal to try and communicate with them when something went wrong. I had to ask the poor fellow on the other end to slow down and then resorted to having him
    spell what he was trying to communicate. Same issue with service support with HP on a printer.

    I have heard many stories of companies doing the India thing, then taking it back in because of communication and customer issues.


  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    225

    Confused

    My wife say's she is going to outsource me...(if i spend to much time on this thread)

    Wonder what she meant by that

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