Trane to Lon?

[crab master]

Building 1 - 1-Trane Intellipak RTU, 30+ - Trane fan powered VAV boxes that are not networked, 1-B.I.C panel with very basic control setup in it (start/stop, emerg shutdown). Here is it feasible to try to go with a Lon-card interface to the intellipak or just take control via a programmable lon controller and add needed sensors?

Building 2 - 2-Trane Intellipaks, 60+ - Trane fan powered boxes that are networked, 1 - Tracer Summit BCU Part #BMTX001AAA001. Same question as above but I see there is an Echelon chip in the BCU however it is my understanding that the SNVTs may/may not be able to be seen depending on how it was programmed. Yeah I've heard the comments on boat anchor, etc. but I am wondering if anyone has done an interface that has been satisfactory. I understand the BCU is bacnet but I am not familar with bacnet and would rather go LON anyway.

Basically customer wants internet access (setpoint control, scheduling control, alarming and to view what the system is basically doing). Just talking web access now but I am aware of the Trane webOps but our cost is 1/3 more than our sell would be if it we could do a lon web solution.

Suggestions appreciated and BTW these are buildings that are less than a year old.

[kwillmech]

Stuff to keep in mind:
If the BCU is a model BMTW you will need to install a Lon/comm5 card in the BCU. If it's a model BMTS you cannot use Lon and must replace the BCU. Also the Intellipak must be a certain software version to support the Lon option (see below). The Intellipak Lon cards make it a SCC or DAC, even in Summit. Summit converts the Peak database NVs to Bacnet Objects and Properties. You will not be able to see the NV or do any bindings in Summit. Summmit does the conversion by using group bindings to the pre-selected NVs that Trane wants to use. If you want to use all the NVs in Summit then make yourself an XIF file (or DL at lonmark.org) and create a Summit GLD. You can create your own I/O property bindings to the NVs you want. Summit will not let you do any Lon bindings from one controller to the next. Rover will but it has to be done after Summit has formatted the network.

Most all our jobs are entirely Lon now. Mostly Trane equipment but we do a lot of Lon to kw meters, flow meters, lighting, pressure sensors, VFDs, etc. All these come into Summit as GLDs (Generic Lon Devices). Summit currently only supports SCC, DAC and Chiller profiles, everything else in considered a GLD. Only times I really run into problems is when the Lon controller is a piece of crap engineering. Like TSI, real junk!



LCI Backward Compatibility
This information applies to: INTELLIPAK ROOFTOP 20-130
To install a LCI in an existing unit:
Intellipak Rooftop Units or Air Handlers must have the following software versions for proper LCI-I operation:
RTM Version 20.05 or greater
HI Version 26.04 or greater
VOM Version 2.0 or greater (this is an optional module)
To verify software versions, press the CONFIGURATION button on the human interface, then press the NEXT
button until the software revision screens are displayed. If the version displayed is the same or higher than the
version listed above, then the unit is compatible. If the version number is lower, some unit functionality may be
lost and module change(s) are required. Units with design sequence “5” (20-75 ton) or “X” (90-130 ton) or
greater are shipped with compatible modules. The design sequence is the 10th digit of the model number.

[crab master]

Here's a couple of photos of the echelon chip and the comm 5 that is already on the BCU panel.








From what you are telling me it looks like the Lon/comm 5 option is already installed. Now my understanding is that this is a programmable controller and the Snvts/Scpts/etc. may/may not be able to be polled depending if the Trane programmer allowed for it. Do you know if that is true?

Also thanks for the info on the intellipaks - I will check the H.I.M/model number.


[Edited by Crab Master on 02-09-2006 at 11:23 PM]

[kwillmech]

That's a model BMTX, latest model BCU out. It has Lon/comm5 built in. This model comes fully loaded with everything, only the modem and touch display are optional.

Everything I already said about the NVs is true. If you connect other Lon devices and do your own custom bindings with a 3rd party program you will need to be cautious of how many group bindings you make, there is a limit. If you bring everyting in through Summit then you should be fine. Remember you need to connect it as a GLD if you want to see the NVs. Example: you create an Analog Input and reference it to a GLD object, set the property referencer to the NV# (or SNVT name if you use an xif file). Then you can see the value the NV is at. There are some NVs that Summit currently does not support.

[amigo]

Crabmaster, If I understand you correctly you want to put a third party webserver onto the comm5 link of the BCU.
BCU/peakdatabase are the sort of speak master on the link and BCU likes everything to go through it. I am not too sure what would happen if you put your 511 or ? polling the devices (intellipaks with LON cards) nvs along side the BCU. But I suggest you be ready for some bumps on the road. Peak database inside the BCU can only be modified and maintained by the BCU which is acting as the network management tool.
If you add a LON card to the intellipak, you probably have to rediscover it as an SCC or DAC in BCU again with tracer summit software, and you would lose a lot of proprietory information that the BCU is right now pulling through the comm4 link to it.
From your pictures it looks like nothing is sitting on the comm5 link, so for you to get any information without hardware changes to the field controllers is for the BCU to act as translator and bind a whole bunch of nvs to your 511 which will sit as a GLD on BCU's comm5 link. and I don't know enough about 511 to know whether its xif is modifiable (add nvs as you go) or not. If 511 is strickly relying on polling and explicit messaging then you can forget it as last I checked BCU will not expose any nvs for polling by third party webservers etc, BCU will only bind or poll Nvs (selected types) to/from third party devices. And this binding process has to defined by using Tracer summit software.

I suggest by the time you do all that, get yourself Trane's web solution and save the advil for another day.

[crab master]

Thanks for the info. The 511 .xif is modifiable (I can add nv's). It also sounds like the programmer of the BCU had to check a box to allow for the nv's that Trane exposes to be exposed and it sounds like I need Summit software make sure I can do what I want to. If I learn/hear anything else I will post more.

[amigo]

It is not quite like check a box and (i am quoting here) "poof" (love that one, codewriter) all the nvs will show up at the BCU.

It is more like constructing a translation table in the BCU using the tracer summit software. And goes like this:
BCU reads a value from vav/intellipak, stores it in a local point then the local point gets pointed to a snvt on your 511 which is sitting on the comm5 link of the BCU as generic LON device. BCU needs to have the XIF for 511 to know which snvt to dump the data into.
Also BCU has some restrictions regarding GLDs which I do not recall but Trane has a document that explains the integration GLDs into BCU.
Maybe K can send it to you.

[integrate all]

IF you are wanting to read information from the BMTX into your (Lon based) webserver I think you need to get familliar with Field Server.

[codewriter]

bah humbug! Just check the box, POOF!, it will work!

[crab master]

Trane commercial salesmen at your service. Get the Summit software and check the box for nv's to be exposed was almost his quote. It sounded good anyway - also for those of you that have dealt with it I am told their webOps goes out and recognizes the Trane equipment and then comes back with a pre-built graphic of each piece of equipment. Anyway again that is what I am told - I haven't seen it.

[kwillmech]

Wish it was true. The WebOPS does go out to commission the BACnet network, but that has nothing to do with graphics. Summit has a library of standard graphics for Trane equipment. The standard graphics are automatically created when the object is created in the Summit database. These graphics along with any custom (floorplans, plants, hydronic systems, etc) graphics need to be published to the WebOPS. This publishing is just a fancy term for uploading into the web server software running in the WebOPS.

[scepter]

kwillmech,
You stated:
If you want to use all the NVs in Summit then make yourself an XIF file (or DL at lonmark.org) and create a Summit GLD. You can create your own I/O property bindings to the NVs you want. Summit will not let you do any Lon bindings from one controller to the next. Rover will but it has to be done after Summit has formatted the network.

Could you explain in greater detail as to how to create an .xif file and how to use it. I am assumming I will need to use Rover to do this, correct?

scepter

[kwillmech]

NP.

Rover cannot create an xif file. You can use a program called Nodeutil to do these easily (there are others). The xif file puts a name to the NV#. Without the xif file all you would see is a list of the NV numbers, no names or descriptions. You would be relying on some manufacturer literature to know which NVs were what.

In Summit, you create a GLD (Generic Lon Device) for any Lon device that is NOT a Lonmark SCC, DAC, or Chiller profile controller. If the device is a SCC, DAC or Chiller then Summit implements the point mapping between the Peak (Lon) database and the Bacnet object database. If the device is a GLD then you must do this manually by creating analog and binary I/O points and referencing to the NV#. If you have the xif file then you can tell Summit to associate the file to the individual device to help you identify the NVs. Summit does not require the xif files, they are merely for helping you map the points.

Another example: If you have a SCC device and there are specific NVs that you want and Summit did not map them (most like because they are non-standard or extra NVs) then you can create the device as a GLD instead of a SCC and map the points yourself.


The manufactures are only obligated to provide the minimum NVs to obtain Lonmark Certification. Many will provide extra NVs but that is at their discretion and will vary with each manufacturer. Lonmark Cetified is not the same as Lonmark Compliant. If in doubt, check the Program ID. If it starts with an 8 then it's Certified, if it starts with a 9 then it's only Compliant.

Nodeutil
http://www.echelon.com/support/downl...82.zipnodeutil

XIFdump
http://www.echelon.com/support/downl...um=xifdump.zip

Hope this helps.

[crab master]

Here's the latest status - we've decided to stay away from building 2 the one with the BCU - as he will have dial up capability and with that he feels it is good enough. We have opened up his eyes for the other buildings though and gave him a lon controls spec.

Now Building 1 -

1 - Intellipak Model SFHFC75EM467C##D6F11ABW00G00L00RT008050
Serial C02K09712

37 - Varitrane VSEF networked boxes

1 - BIC - Part No. X13650576-01 Rev. 6

1 - VAV Programmable Zone Sensor MFG. No. 91K93

1 - Johnson/Penn A419 for discharge air control

From what I am seeing I think I can buy a Lon card for the intellipak - I haven't been able to verify via HMI - and then also buy a t-stat interface to be able to control the unit and get rid of the BIC. The BIC is just 10 DO's. Now my only concern is the communication that goes on via the exisiting Trane network to each of the boxes - is it done via the bic telling it the unit is heating/cooling via the DO's or is there some sort of other communication going on? If there is can I get into that communication? I have called and stopped by my local Trane office and am still waiting for a response from their controls guy. Thanks in advance and for all the input thus far.

[crab master]

Latest update. We have decided to tell the customer we can not do the job. Opened up a big can of worms with other proposals and Trane also not willing to sell us parts to do the job. Not here to necessarily bad mouth Trane, as I do like alot of their products but the tough part is when you've got a parts/equipment dealer that is also a service company and their ties with companies that buy alot of Trane equipment with them. Their loyalty is to themselves and their bigger customers, which is understandable, but at the same token with them advertising "Lon" capability and then only selling it to who they want to it really is a bit of an oxymoron. Anyway we did at least get a Lon spec in the builder's hands so hopefully he'll put it to use for his future buildings. I also got to give the Trane rep alot of credit as he was straightforward and explained why. On my end it is quite frustrating because the open protocol is there, but it's under lock and key.

[kwillmech]

What parts are they not willing to sell you? The Lon cards are service parts. The BCU will need to be installed and programmed by Trane or a partner company. The local office cannot withhold Rover software from you, only Summit software (have it purchased by a Trane Summit customer).

[crab master]

They will not sell us a Lon card. Also we are told we cannot buy Rover - which we need more - but we can buy Summit.

[nikko]

Sorry to hear that Crab Master.

If it's worth anything, I've done the same thing. I've walked from a Trane job where Trane sold the job as being LON "ready" and when it came time to use another vendor (us), the Trane office made it way too expensive and way too complicated to the customer. On top of that, the local guys had no idea what they were doing (with LON) and it was all a huge mess that was way too risky for us to tackle.

Dealing with Trane can be like fishing with an oversized barbed treble hook. Once you catch one, you might be able to shake the fish free, but it's unlikely it'll survive without massive and expensive intervention so you bring it in the boat and continue fishing for the next one. No one's worried about the fish anymore, there's always another one.

Frustrating.

Nikko

[sysint]

It's ridiculous, not frustrating.

What needed to happen is a meeting with the Owner, Trane, and you guys. Everybody open book what they do, why and how. I'd have got a reference from Army Corps ready to go.

Watch Trane squirm about how difficult they make an easy process that will benefit the owner.

You might be surprised how fast they become helpful when the customer has this disappointed look on their face.