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I'll shut it down overnight and try it monday going into tuesday and see what it does.
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Originally Posted by
R123
It shouldn't need to be cold outside for this problem. It may have been a coincidence.
Unless it runs 24/7 and it only stops a compressor on a cold night, when the load is light and it drops chill water below setpoint. Don't doubt yourself now R123! I would eliminate, or verify, this possibility next.
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Classic RTAA first start syndrome .
The toy chest is officially full ... I got a new toy..... 2007 Aston Martin V8 Vantage
and yes it still gives me goosebumps
You bend em" I"ll mend em" !!!!!!!
I"m not a service tech, I’m retired ….I used to be a thermodynamic transfer analyst & strategic system sustainability specialist
In the new big shop , greasin', oilin' . tweakin' n shinin' !!
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I had a similar problem with a RTAA do everything that I found in the past in this forum fails
Compressor to testing all the symptoms had appeared to be lip problems put the kit to return the slide valve and the problem was not corrected
The problem I have is I am doing a study temperature of thermal loads and flows
I have three units and only RTAA200 the systems are operating correctly systems number 1 number two in the last 2 years have been problems with oil and I replaced 2
In fact a new one in place a system does not operate correctly 2 and still had problems with the fall 199
Remove compressor system 1 and place the new and it operates correctly
So we are doing this study
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I forgot to mention that the water pressure drop was correct as requested by the manual
is the reason why we do not have cash flow problems
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Ok I shut this turkey down overnight several times since it has finally got cold here. I cannot make it act up on first start in the morning. However, if I let it run overnight in cold weather the very next morning the damm thing will have either high pressure cutout or code 198/199 oil flow codes.
Someone before me already performed the SB-4 bulletin for the load unload solenoid re-route on both circuits
From all of the discussion here the problem is that she's randomly started loaded on first start during the night or early morning at some point.
I performed every step in the slide valve troubleshooting bulletin multiple times and everything passes with flying colors I cant make it ever act up.
Based off the randomly starting loaded where do I go from here what the heck do I rebuild replace etc to fix it when I cant ever make it act up when I am there to catch it. And again it has had the load unload solenoid re-route done in the past. Thanks for all of the help guys I'm at my wits end on this stinking thing.
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Originally Posted by
aggiechillertech
Ok I shut this turkey down overnight several times since it has finally got cold here. I cannot make it act up on first start in the morning. However, if I let it run overnight in cold weather the very next morning the damm thing will have either high pressure cutout or code 198/199 oil flow codes.
Someone before me already performed the SB-4 bulletin for the load unload solenoid re-route on both circuits
From all of the discussion here the problem is that she's randomly started loaded on first start during the night or early morning at some point.
I performed every step in the slide valve troubleshooting bulletin multiple times and everything passes with flying colors I cant make it ever act up.
Based off the randomly starting loaded where do I go from here what the heck do I rebuild replace etc to fix it when I cant ever make it act up when I am there to catch it. And again it has had the load unload solenoid re-route done in the past. Thanks for all of the help guys I'm at my wits end on this stinking thing.
Sounds like you have a condition in the condenser fan staging that's possibly getting you right to the edge of tripping, but only going past that point every once in a while. Pull up a bucket, put your winter coat on, and watch it to see what happens. You can probably manually cycle it and watch the dp across the filter during all aspects of operation to determine when you're getting to the trip point and reconcile the cause with the conditions. Nobody said this would be easy...
BTW, welcome to the SEC...........
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but dont you have alarm times in display? if not you need it , and you need to be there at those times , stan
Keep it simple to keep it cool!
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but dont you have alarm times in display? if not you need it , and you need to be there at those times , stan
Keep it simple to keep it cool!
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Originally Posted by
klove
Sounds like you have a condition in the condenser fan staging that's possibly getting you right to the edge of tripping, but only going past that point every once in a while. Pull up a bucket, put your winter coat on, and watch it to see what happens. You can probably manually cycle it and watch the dp across the filter during all aspects of operation to determine when you're getting to the trip point and reconcile the cause with the conditions. Nobody said this would be easy...
BTW, welcome to the SEC...........
Maybe he could install a fan cycle switch on each circuit temporarily to fire a set of fans and get a jump start on the chiller controls bringing the fans on . At least just to see if the alarms go away for a week or two. Sounds like that we have a theory of what's going on but this would throw that doubt out.
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I`d be sitting there at 3am
Keep it simple to keep it cool!
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Time for some new hockey pucks .
The toy chest is officially full ... I got a new toy..... 2007 Aston Martin V8 Vantage
and yes it still gives me goosebumps
You bend em" I"ll mend em" !!!!!!!
I"m not a service tech, I’m retired ….I used to be a thermodynamic transfer analyst & strategic system sustainability specialist
In the new big shop , greasin', oilin' . tweakin' n shinin' !!
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If I were to take a blind stab where would a place to try stabbing be.
It has the upgraded fan software in it I yanked the controllers apart and verified with the numbers on the proms.
Since both circuits randomly are acting up with the random high pressure cutout and low oil flow could it be time for a slide valve rebuild and replace the unload and load solenoid while I'm at it. It's a 98 model chiller with a metric ton of run hours since it's in south texas and we average 106+ for day's on end during the summer.
This summer it ran perfect not a hiccup one other than a weak safety relief valve that dropped the charge on one circuit.
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Originally Posted by
aggiechillertech
If I were to take a blind stab where would a place to try stabbing be.
It has the upgraded fan software in it I yanked the controllers apart and verified with the numbers on the proms.
Since both circuits randomly are acting up with the random high pressure cutout and low oil flow could it be time for a slide valve rebuild and replace the unload and load solenoid while I'm at it. It's a 98 model chiller with a metric ton of run hours since it's in south texas and we average 106+ for day's on end during the summer.
This summer it ran perfect not a hiccup one other than a weak safety relief valve that dropped the charge on one circuit.
I don't think that you have to take a blind stab. I think (as was said earlier) that you need to be there when it happens. If it's happening at a particular time of day or range of hours every time it happens, along with certain loading conditions not just on the evaporator but on the condenser, also, then be there when it takes place. Reconcile the cause with the conditions or you're just guessing.
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Originally Posted by
thegoodlistener
Maybe he could install a fan cycle switch on each circuit temporarily to fire a set of fans and get a jump start on the chiller controls bringing the fans on . At least just to see if the alarms go away for a week or two. Sounds like that we have a theory of what's going on but this would throw that doubt out.
There's not a problem at all with doing just that, but I was concerned that one of the Trane guys who will remain unnamed would have a myocardial infarction and lose consciousness if anyone brought it up. Have a friend that posted once a few years back that he had done just what you said (on the advice of the local Trane factory office screw chiller guru, mind you) and the more outspoken Trane folks on the site basically tarred and feathered him. He don't come here no more.
Truth is, I like alot of the Trane gear. Them thangs can make a buttload of cold water when they're running. But they - like all others - have things about some of their designs that push the edge of common sense and good judgment about how to operate or control a piece of equipment. Historically, the Trane folks (not all, but most) have carried the "My stuff is better across the board than anyone else's" banner higher than the rest of the industry. It's hard to convince them that it's not hard to stop a Trane, but it can be aggravatin' as the dickens to get one (or keep one) running at times. They have good stuff and they have stuff that's not close to good, just like everyone else.
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Originally Posted by
klove
There's not a problem at all with doing just that, but I was concerned that one of the Trane guys who will remain unnamed would have a myocardial infarction and lose consciousness if anyone brought it up. Have a friend that posted once a few years back that he had done just what you said (on the advice of the local Trane factory office screw chiller guru, mind you) and the more outspoken Trane folks on the site basically tarred and feathered him. He don't come here no more.
Truth is, I like alot of the Trane gear. Them thangs can make a buttload of cold water when they're running. But they - like all others - have things about some of their designs that push the edge of common sense and good judgment about how to operate or control a piece of equipment. Historically, the Trane folks (not all, but most) have carried the "My stuff is better across the board than anyone else's" banner higher than the rest of the industry. It's hard to convince them that it's not hard to stop a Trane, but it can be aggravatin' as the dickens to get one (or keep one) running at times. They have good stuff and they have stuff that's not close to good, just like everyone else.
If you took the time to read all the posts on here concerning this issue (as well as the old ones ) you will find the answer to your problem .
This issue has enough posts and pages to fill new and old testaments and probably a copy of Gone With The Wind . I have answered so many times to guys with this problem and given them the answer and fix its not funny .
The thing that ticks me off is that no one bothers to use the search feature on here to research their problem , they just come on here with me "my chillers busted ..whats up with it " and expect an answer within .06microseconds ......it aint gonna happen ....
Pull up a chair grab a case of cold ones do the reading (carefully) and you will find your answer (its in print and plain to see) . Happy reading
The toy chest is officially full ... I got a new toy..... 2007 Aston Martin V8 Vantage
and yes it still gives me goosebumps
You bend em" I"ll mend em" !!!!!!!
I"m not a service tech, I’m retired ….I used to be a thermodynamic transfer analyst & strategic system sustainability specialist
In the new big shop , greasin', oilin' . tweakin' n shinin' !!
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Post Likes - 1 Likes, 0 Dislikes
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Originally Posted by
graham
If you took the time to read all the posts on here concerning this issue (as well as the old ones ) you will find the answer to your problem .
This issue has enough posts and pages to fill new and old testaments and probably a copy of Gone With The Wind . I have answered so many times to guys with this problem and given them the answer and fix its not funny .
The thing that ticks me off is that no one bothers to use the search feature on here to research their problem , they just come on here with me "my chillers busted ..whats up with it " and expect an answer within .06microseconds ......it aint gonna happen ....
Pull up a chair grab a case of cold ones do the reading (carefully) and you will find your answer (its in print and plain to see) . Happy reading
Well did it work for your buddy? Trane does have its pro's and con's but like most things it has it's quirks that just happen and as we all know these are always the hardest to fix. I know people can't say too much about other people on the site because I'm sure good info would just dry up. I guess we all know that Graham is not coming to Texas to try to fix it so you have to do what you can whether it's a pressure switch or compressor overhaul.
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Originally Posted by
graham
This issue has enough posts and pages to fill new and old testaments and probably a copy of Gone With The Wind . I have answered so many times to guys with this problem and given them the answer and fix its not funny .
You're right in that this is probably the single most talked about service issue on this site. That also means that it's the single most prevalent issue among this site's constituents. That means that something is pushing the edge of sanity, especially when the most popular answer to the question is "are your condensers clean?". Not just clean, but spotless, immaculate, sterile, etc. We've heard all the adjectives. If I have to keep air-cooled condensers clean enough to perform surgery on, they're no good to me. We live in a world that has dirt in the air, and I'm taking care of a chiller, not building a watch.
As far as the other answers go, they sort of fall into the same category of "If it's that big a deal, why do they control it that way?". For all of their problems (and they are plentiful), I never saw a York YCAS have a problem with oil filter pressure drop due to excessive head pressure because one condenser fan crapped out or there was a nominally dirty condenser or the compressor started loaded or etc, etc. All because York simply started and stopped the fans off of head pressure, period. Mind you - I've never seen York or ex-York guys vehemently defend a poor way of doing something just because it's the York way, either, which is something that I can't say about the Trane folks in general.
I have several RTAA's that I take care of, and I like them. Over all, they're good chillers as air-cooled screws go. But face it - this issue gave Trane a black eye and has continued on because Trane wouldn't do anything about it. The attitude of Trane towards the "lifetime" oil filter on these chillers says more than I can ever say about their skewed view of reality on certain subjects. You know the one: it lasts the life of the chiller and should never need to be changed. If the circuit is that clean, why waste the money putting an oil filter on it in the first place? I've seen folks on this site with these questions get beat up severely about the oil filter thing by some Trane folks, only to be told later that if all else fails, maybe they do need to change the oil filter.
There is enough stuff on this subject to write a novel about, but there wouldn't be if it weren't so convoluted due to Trane's overall attitude about it. All have good and all have bad, no matter the name on the tag. And some things work just fine, even if I don't agree with the way it's done.
And I agree 100% with your assessment of the "non-use" of the search feature, by the way.......
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Originally Posted by
thegoodlistener
Well did it work for your buddy?
Yes, it did. But don't tell the Trane guys........
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Originally Posted by
stanbyyourword
I`d be sitting there at 3am
double down on this one. although it is likely that the slide valve needs rebuilt, i prefer to verify the problem rather than fully trust a diagnostic code or description.
it could be that you are also experiencing a very high evaporator load, along with a sometimes sticking slide valve could cause high condensing pressures. sitting down to find out would allow that to be verified and then appropriate measures could be taken.
(side bar) as for Klove's discussion about clean coils...i don't think that 'sterile' is required, however, my personal viewpoint about 'keep your coils clean' versus 'modify the whole damn thing' is that keeping your coils clean is reasonable maintenance along with keeping a whole slew of problems from occuring along with less stress on the compressors and lower energy bills. i like the suggestion about modifying the wiring (temporarily) to find a fix or at least rule out the potential condenser fans as an issue. but permanently leaving the modification in place is asking for trouble. those who modify those units should not be able to ask for too much help in the future as certain control processes/procedures are assumed unless otherwise detailed.
YOU may be able to modify YOUR units very well and actually have them work much better in YOUR condition or climate than the factory has built and designed them, however, the factory (and those of us who are helping to diagnose problems from down the street to 12,500 miles away) has to design them for all conditions and climates as best as they can and sometimes salespersons sell them for conditions that the equipment is not best suited for....oh, and some bean counter and lawyer has final say in all equipment design for any manufacturer over 10 years old.
but to blanket-say that you SHOULD modify a unit in a certain way without proper engineering of the on-site conditions would be improper. to blanket-say that you SHOULDN'T modify a unit a certain way may also be improper, however, it is safer for the unit and the people operating it to leave it as the factory has decided (good or bad) to ship it.
"Right" is not the same as "Wise".
Don't step on my favorite part of the Constitution just to point out your favorite part.
Just because you can measure it, doesn't mean it is important. Just because you can't measure it, doesn't mean it isn't important.