Anyone else see a difference in medical attitudes?

[garyed]

Politicians are making huge profits from healthcare. By pushing Socialized healthcare, politicians get major funding from insurance companies and drug manufacturer's..

That doesn't make sense. With socialized health care there is no need for insurance so why would insurance co.s fund a politician who is pushing it.

Are you saying we should get rid of Medicare too & let those over 65 get their own health care like everyone else? I'm almost 62 & between premiums & deductibles it costs about $20,000.00 a year in health care for me & my wife.
In three years I expect it to be around $30,000.00. That is just criminal.
Leaving health care to insurance co.s is like having a pedophile baby sit your kids. How many have to suffer or die before our eyes are opened?

[garyed]

For those of you who don't buy the Canadian system, I'm sure they've got their share of problems & some do come to the US for certain things but that is not the norm. We're talking very small numbers & nothing like the more than 40 million who are uninsured here. There are a lot more Americans who go to Mexico & other countries to get health care they can't afford here than Canadians who come to the US for health care.

[timebuilder]

Here is something to think about.

Healthcare is expensive because so many people don't have to pay for it. Same with student loans. If there were no student loans, would colleges close? Nope. They wouldn't have 500 million dollar endowments, but the price of tuition would have to come down to a level that a student could afford.

If we had to pay for all but truly catastrophic care, the cost would come down, as lawyers would not have a giant financial vein to suck on. When the deep pockets went way, so would go the legal costs, the sky high malpractice premiums, and you wouldn't have states where its nearly impossible to practice OB GYN.

As for people coming here for medical care, thousands come to the US every day, because we are unequaled. Busses leave Toronto every day bringing people here who will DIE if they have to wait as long as Canadian healthcare says they must.

If anyone thinks Michael Moore's "Sicko" is based on fact, do your own research, and look at the abject poverty of the Cuban people before you think that their healthcare is worth making a movie about.

[janlikeswarm]

As for people coming here for medical care, thousands come to the US every day, because we are unequaled. Busses leave Toronto every day bringing people here who will DIE if they have to wait as long as Canadian healthcare says they must.

.

What an arrogant load of crap

[RoBoTeq]

RoBoTeq,
Best wishes to you in your quest for healthy living.
As I first said I'm not here to bash anyone, just curious.

BTW, I have never heard of anyone running to the USA for medical treatment. Statistically speaking Canadians have a longer life expectancy than Americans and a lower mortality rate for newborns.
Canadians likely pay more in income tax then you, but it is offset with the need to pay for insurance premiums.

I only have articles such as the one I linked to to go by. If it's on the internet, it's got to be true....right?

I really can't comment on the politics or social wants/needs of foreign countries because I don't live there and I cannot completely understand all of the nuances, just as those who don't live in the U.S. cannot fully comprehend what it's like here. All I have to go by are what I find from others.

In a country as Capitalistic as the U.S. has been designed to be, Socialism can only go so far, or someone pushing Socialism is going to figure out how to capitalize on the Socialist programs. That is what the leftists in the U.S. are doing; capitalizing on Socialism. And that is an ultimate hypocracy, even for our Barak-racy.

[timebuilder]

What an arrogant load of crap

Tell that to my dad and half my cousins eh. He was a mountie.

Hoser.

[RoBoTeq]

What an arrogant load of crap

Hmmm, is it really?

Windsor, Ontario, doctor Albert Schumacher believes it's his ethical and moral responsibility to tell patients they can cross the border for faster tests. The president of the Canadian Medical Association said the country's doctors have no choice when waiting times get unhealthy for their patients.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2...25/730737.html

[RoBoTeq]

That doesn't make sense. With socialized health care there is no need for insurance so why would insurance co.s fund a politician who is pushing it.

Are you saying we should get rid of Medicare too & let those over 65 get their own health care like everyone else? I'm almost 62 & between premiums & deductibles it costs about $20,000.00 a year in health care for me & my wife.
In three years I expect it to be around $30,000.00. That is just criminal.
Leaving health care to insurance co.s is like having a pedophile baby sit your kids. How many have to suffer or die before our eyes are opened?

You will still have insurance companies. Just like with vehicle insurance, we will all just be forced to have health insurance or become criminals of the government. The health insurance industry has run out of ways to scam the public, so they need a way to bail out. In the first few years of national health care, the insurance industry will have a boon business because everyone will be forced to have insurance. After a period of years adjusting to the new system, the insurance companies will become public utility companies for government, paid for with tax money. It's a win/win situation for the insurance companies who have run out of ways to bilk us.

What Health Insurers Get From Obamacare
In return for its support in the healthcare reform battle, President Obama offered the insurance industry the graceful exit strategy it so desperately needed. Under Obamacare, for at least a few years the insurers hope to get One Last Windfall – namely, profits from the influx of previously-uninsured Americans whose premiums will be paid, or at least subsidized, by taxpayers. Here, the insurers are relying on the likelihood that the inflow of new premiums will, for a year or two at least, greatly outweigh the outflow of money they will have to spend caring for these new subscribers. Obviously, they will use every trick in their well-worn book to stave off expenditures for these new subscribers for as long as they can, but if they actually knew how to avoid paying healthcare costs indefinitely, they wouldn’t be seeking a government bail-out today. In any case, an inflow of new subscribers will be a very temporary source of profit for insurers. Hence, at best it is One Last Windfall.

http://covertrationingblog.com/weird...rted-obamacare

[garyed]

What Health Insurers Get From Obamacare
In return for its support in the healthcare reform battle, President Obama offered the insurance industry the graceful exit strategy it so desperately needed. Under Obamacare, for at least a few years the insurers hope to get One Last Windfall – namely, profits from the influx of previously-uninsured Americans whose premiums will be paid, or at least subsidized, by taxpayers. Here, the insurers are relying on the likelihood that the inflow of new premiums will, for a year or two at least, greatly outweigh the outflow of money they will have to spend caring for these new subscribers. Obviously, they will use every trick in their well-worn book to stave off expenditures for these new subscribers for as long as they can, but if they actually knew how to avoid paying healthcare costs indefinitely, they wouldn’t be seeking a government bail-out today. In any case, an inflow of new subscribers will be a very temporary source of profit for insurers. Hence, at best it is One Last Windfall.

I wasn't talking about Obamacare which I agree is worthless. I was talking
about real Socialized health care where the gov actually pays for our health care through taxes similar to Medicare. I can't see why anyone would have a problem with free medical care for everyone except maybe insurance executives. You can read different articles about Canada's system positive & negative but I've talked to plenty of vacationing Canadians the last two years & have yet to find one who didn't like their system. We may be able to provide the greatest health care in world but if 20% of our population can't afford it then something is obviously wrong.

[janlikeswarm]

[QUOTE=

Hoser.[/QUOTE]

[osiyo]

For those of you who don't buy the Canadian system, I'm sure they've got their share of problems & some do come to the US for certain things but that is not the norm. We're talking very small numbers & nothing like the more than 40 million who are uninsured here. There are a lot more Americans who go to Mexico & other countries to get health care they can't afford here than Canadians who come to the US for health care.

You have real, verifiable numbers to support that assertion? Keep in mind using raw numbers alone doesn't tell a complete story since the population of Canada is MUCH smaller than that of the U.S. So to do a fair comparison would would need to use numbers like % of total population, or so many per 1,000, or some such.

And how do you arrive at any such accurate numbers anyway?

Is there some system I am unaware of which DEMANDS and ENFORCES some rule that you MUST tell the government all the particulars of just why you are crossing the border?

It'd be news to me. I've been across the border a great many times, to Mexico, to Canada, flying to someplace overseas, etc and no one ever demanded I disclose whether or not I was seeking medical treatment or to buy pharmaceuticals as part of the reason for my trip.

Who actually keeps such numbers?

<Shrug> A couple or 3 years back my wife and I had a Canadian friend stay with us as a house guest, as she sought treatment in the U.S. for a heart problem. Problem was, yes she could get the treatment in Canada, but her doctor told her he did not know if it were safe for her to wait the extended wait time she'd be required to wait in Canada. PLUS ... her options for picking a specific specialist she trusted to be better than just OKAY ... were near non-existent.

In any event, she came across the border into the U.S. and got seen and evaluated at the Mayo here in Minnesota. Then they scheduled her in under priority due to the severity of her condition and she was treated. With a very successful outcome.

Nobody at the border DEMANDED she admit to whether or not she was seeking medical treatment. She was stopped and asked her reason for crossing the border, and she just told em she was visiting friends and taking a bit of a vacation.

Sheesh ....

It's about like when the wife and I took a vacation. To Texas, where I have some relatives. During said trip we crossed over into Mexico. That was pre-planned. I had a couple favored restaurants I wanted to visit, wife wanted to do some shopping. Etc. While going about those things we also stopped in a Mexican pharmacy to pick up a few, selected items. Not as if it were a lot, and not as if it were things of extraordinary urgent need. Some Minnesota friends and relatives had given us a list of this or that, known to be relatively safe (antibiotics and such) which were readily available and cost something like half or less than the EXACT same items in the U.S.

No big deal. Even showed it to the customs guys when we exited Mexico. They didn't care. A common practice. Items on our list were legal and permitted. Customs agents were taking notes about it, didn't care. And we sure as heck didn't have to declare that this was why we'd entered Mexico. In fact, it wasn't the reason. Who the heck makes a 1500 mile trip just to pick up $100 bucks of half priced pharmaceuticals?

Ditto the situation here, where I live, Minnesota. (You know, that place right up along the Canadian border?) While there may be folks who go into Canada just to buy cheaper pharmaceuticals, I'll hazard the guess that its a small number given the shear numbers of people in the U.S.

In fact, just did a search for information. And by the Canadian governments own numbers, evidently we don't bother to try to track such things, its estimated the total of pharmaceuticals bought by U.S. citizens who don't actually live in Canada, to be something like $1 billion annually. Certainly an important number for them, given their smaller population. But in terms of what U.S. citizens spend on average for prescription drugs, about half of 1 percent.

So its not as if U.S. citizens are killing themselves to cross the border to go after those cheaper drugs, either.

Except for isolated and very limited cases, it would seem that most U.S. citizens don't feel just all that pressed to make a special trip to Canada, just for the cheaper drugs.

Which sounds about right in my experience. Based upon conversations I have with very real people.

Did I mention I live right up by Canada? And that a lot of Canadians travel through here? Seeing Canadian license plates around here is so common place no one actually bothers to pay attention to them. Any more than the Canadian's probably pay attention to U.S. license plates just on the other side of the border from Minnesota. Egads, some Minnesotan (or N Dakotan, or whatever) crossing over for a visit with friends, touristing, going fishing, or whatever, is common place.

Truth is, I doubt if any significant numbers of folks, on either side cross over JUST for medical reasons. By and large, most Canadians I know like their system. And ditto, most Minnesotans (and N Dakotans, etc) I know like the medical coverage and treatment they have here.

Each finds some faults and issues with the system where they live, but by and large it isn't enough to motivate them to jump to the other side of the border.

Yes, our system in the U.S. has issues which need to be addressed and fixed. Although the problems, extent of them, vary from state to state. With some places being less ... desirable ... than others. i.e. I know nothing of S Carolina. Do know something of N Carolina, having friends who live there. Friends who've come and stayed in Minnesota for lengthy periods. Their opinion, health care availability and quality in Minnesota puts that of N Carolina to shame.

Their opinion, not mine.

Anyway, the extent of the problems and issues can vary quite drastically from state to state.

As to the Canadian system? It has much to be admired. But it also has very real issues.

The reason I said before to the fellow from Canada, that its a shame that we can't adopt the best features of both systems and come out with a compromise that might work better.

BTW, FWIW, I don't know a single person around here who is FACTUALLY without means for medical treatment. At worst, just go to an emergency room. Around here they don't turn anyone away.

For the poor, this state provides means for them to get medical treatment and coverage, including routine care. That's not a guess. I do work with a charity group that works with the poor. One of the things we do, if the client does not understand the system, is to guide them through it.

Worst problem is with those who do work and have a source of income, who don't qualify for state aid due to making too much money, but for whom buying coverage means maybe skipping meals.

We need to fix that.

We also need to fix the issue with pre-existing conditions. My wife falls under that category. Insurance companies and some medical health groups don't want to touch her. If she were on her own and trying to buy coverage, likely she could not get it. Of course, without me, and on disability SS, she'd qualify for state aid.

We're fortunate that I have the means to ensure her coverage. The particular coverage I have through my work does accept her. But its an exception. And it costs me plenty.

Problem is, if I were to lose this job and could not stay with the current health care provider .... the others I've checked with will NOT cover her.

She/we are in a fortunate situation. But I know others not so lucky. We need to do something about that pre-existing condition clause which causes some to be unable to get coverage.

Etc.

[timebuilder]

The problem with medical care in the US is exactly what Robo is sensing, GREED.

I know that I am not qualified to determine "greed." Are you? Robo?

Nope.

The threat of legal action, as advertised on TV and radio, searching madly for potential victims, is a cost driver in the US, right after discrimination, sexual harassment, and ADA claims.

If a physician cannot afford the premiums to practice OB GYN, for example, they leave that state. In Pa, it's gotten really bad. This is because any birth is an imperfect experience, and bad things lead to lifetime support and therapy claims.

If we accomplish tort reform, then we can reduce the need for those sky high premiums, and docs can practice at a level that makes sense.

[timebuilder]

I wasn't talking about Obamacare which I agree is worthless. I was talking
about real Socialized health care where the gov actually pays for our health care through taxes similar to Medicare. I can't see why anyone would have a problem with free medical care for everyone except maybe insurance executives. You can read different articles about Canada's system positive & negative but I've talked to plenty of vacationing Canadians the last two years & have yet to find one who didn't like their system. We may be able to provide the greatest health care in world but if 20% of our population can't afford it then something is obviously wrong.

What is wrong is that we have health insurance. If there is no insurance or a payer other than the recipient, costs MUST come down to a level that can be afforded.

[timebuilder]

A couple or 3 years back my wife and I had a Canadian friend stay with us as a house guest, as she sought treatment in the U.S. for a heart problem. Problem was, yes she could get the treatment in Canada, but her doctor told her he did not know if it were safe for her to wait the extended wait time she'd be required to wait in Canada. PLUS ... her options for picking a specific specialist she trusted to be better than just OKAY ... were near non-existent.

In any event, she came across the border into the U.S. and got seen and evaluated at the Mayo here in Minnesota. Then they scheduled her in under priority due to the severity of her condition and she was treated. With a very successful outcome.

Nobody at the border DEMANDED she admit to whether or not she was seeking medical treatment. She was stopped and asked her reason for crossing the border, and she just told em she was visiting friends and taking a bit of a vacation.

Sheesh ....

Yes. The thousands that come to the US every day for medical care are not all from Canada and Mexico. Many fly here from Europe. I almost took a job flying an old Learjet 20 model around the Caribbean to pick up folks and bring them to Florida. That would be four people on board: me, the copilot, a nurse/attendant and the person on the litter in the Air Ambulance.

It would not include people who want to go to Cuba for care. Nobody except Moore wants to go to Cuba for care. That concept is a sad joke.

[jmac00]

Try this, next time you go to your regular (General Practitioner) doctor ask him/her how much they would charge if you where paying CASH.

You'd be surprised at how cheap it is.

Remember when everyone had "major medical insurance" for hospitalization and you went to your regular doctor for the sniffles or stitches you paid CASH or most times the doctor would 'float' you for a couple weeks to pay the bill.


aaaah the good old days, when a doctor was someone to be revered and the doctors where more interested in your health than the bill

[garyed]

What is wrong is that we have health insurance. If there is no insurance or a payer other than the recipient, costs MUST come down to a level that can be afforded.

You hit the nail on the head. Get rid of health insurance & we can solve the
health care problem.

[garyed]

You have real, verifiable numbers to support that assertion? Keep in mind using raw numbers alone doesn't tell a complete story since the population of Canada is MUCH smaller than that of the U.S. So to do a fair comparison would would need to use numbers like % of total population, or so many per 1,000, or some such.

And how do you arrive at any such accurate numbers anyway? .............

I wasn't citing numbers but only a logical conclusion I've arrived at from different sources. You can just google to your hearts content & come up with your own conclusions. I've talked with quite a few Canadians about their medical system who've had first hand experience also & even one who had heart surgery & not one of them had a problem with excessive wait times or quality care. I'm sure they've got their share of problems & there's some specialists in the US that do certain procedures that they can't get done in Canada but this is a small percentage compared to the millions of Americans with no medical care. There are estimates that about 100 people die everyday in the US just because they don't have medical insurance. Any way you slice it, its a travesty. The US has almost ten times the population of Canada but that makes it even worse. If 10% of Canadians can't get the care they need then their gov has failed about 3 million people but if the US fails 10% we're about 30 million. Normally I would agree its the percentages that count but when it comes to lives I think the individual numbers are more important.

[janlikeswarm]

[QUOTE=garyed;11664652] I've talked with quite a few Canadians about their medical system who've had first hand experience also & even one who had heart surgery & not one of them had a problem with excessive wait times or quality care. I'm sure they've got their share of problems & there's some specialists in the US that do certain procedures that they can't get done in Canada

I have to agree wholeheartly. I've never known or heard about anybody needing critical care who has had to wait for an excessive amount of time. I'm willing to wager in fact no longer then American hospitals.

Also, I'm not so sure that there are specialtists in the States for procedures not avaliable in Canada. The implication being that our society is less civilized or intellectually inferior then America.

Sorry, don't mean to offend, but one of the problems that many people have with the States, is the seemingly self centered superior complex many people seem to have. United States of America is not the country with the highest standard of living. I wonder how many Americians know that? You have a huge population and the worlds strongest military. It doesn't make it the best place to live.

[RoBoTeq]

I wasn't talking about Obamacare which I agree is worthless. I was talking
about real Socialized health care where the gov actually pays for our health care through taxes similar to Medicare. I can't see why anyone would have a problem with free medical care for everyone except maybe insurance executives. You can read different articles about Canada's system positive & negative but I've talked to plenty of vacationing Canadians the last two years & have yet to find one who didn't like their system. We may be able to provide the greatest health care in world but if 20% of our population can't afford it then something is obviously wrong.

Aside from the fact that many economists consider Medicare a Ponzi scheme, think about some of the things you have written here. You say you are for government paying for health care through taxes and then claim everyone will have "free" health care. IT'S NOT FREE IF THOSE OF US PAYING TAXES HAVE TO PAY FOR IT!

The Ponzi scheme comes into play by government operated anything requiring government employees to administer the program. That is even more tax money that needs to be paid. That is more tax money that must be taken from those who work to pay for benefits for those who won't or cannnot work "AND"...to pay for more government workers and support more organized labor unions.

Socialism, in very controlled moderation, must be part of government. However, anything that is socialist in nature should be kept at a bare minimum or it will grow into the monster's that government now has to feed with tax money taken from those who work and produce. Eventually the scale tips and there is more need to support the socialist system then there is money available to be taken from those who are forced to support the beast.

[RoBoTeq]

I know that I am not qualified to determine "greed." Are you? Robo?

Nope.

The threat of legal action, as advertised on TV and radio, searching madly for potential victims, is a cost driver in the US, right after discrimination, sexual harassment, and ADA claims.

If a physician cannot afford the premiums to practice OB GYN, for example, they leave that state. In Pa, it's gotten really bad. This is because any birth is an imperfect experience, and bad things lead to lifetime support and therapy claims.

If we accomplish tort reform, then we can reduce the need for those sky high premiums, and docs can practice at a level that makes sense.

Of course I can determine what greed is! Greed is when someone else wants more then I have determined they should have .