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  1. #1
    My Geothermal system is less than 4 years old, and Carrier has recommended that it be removed and replaced with an Infinity Air Source System. Supposedly, Carrier is giving me a very good price on the equipment to facilitate the conversion; however, it is still a significant amount of money to spend on a four year old system. The problem is with the ground loop, and Carrier doesn't know how to fix it.

    Is there a used market for this type of equipment? Two 4 ton compressors and two air handling systems. I would accept just about any resonable offer, and I can ship the units.


  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Posts
    1,874
    why can't the loop be fixed ?

    Who installed the loop ?
    What kind of loop ?

    Have you had all t's crossed and i's dotted yet, before you sell the equipment ?
    If you try to fail, and succeed.
    Which have you done ?



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Central Kansas
    Posts
    1,145
    You've really got my curiosity here. Any specific complaints- equipment problems- "they" have no other solutions? Loops too small, shrub/tree roots strangling the PE tubing, wells not deep enough, not enough wells or loops, air bound in slinky look and can't get it expelled, etc? Installer had no idea what he was doing, some engineer had no idea what he was designing? The 'free' hot water came with a price tag, undersized system, badly designed ducts, oversized and doesn't remove humidity, someone forgot to add heat strips for the really cold days...? Not trying to pick at a sore, I'm just real curious if you'll indulge me with some details. We're newly expanding into the GSHP area and have good history so far with customers experiencing some relatively pleasant utility bills.

    You came here for help and my questions are probably not what you're after, but you may really help me out. Hell, I might drive over there and take the troublesome little ba$&@#^ off you hands! (Kidding) To give you the shortest answer - try Ebay. For a percentage, my wife will take digitals and give your system a try on their auction. She has a good selling record and feedback scores. But you are probably more than capable of assembling a good listing for the products- there is a lot of HVAC equipment sold on E-bay (NOT by me, for the record).
    Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is already made up.

  4. #4
    I appreciate the replies to my post. Trying to keep a very long story short, my problems go back to the initial installation. It's always had a small leak that the installer tried to repair by adding some type of "stop leak" to the system. He made several trips, but ultimately couldn't fix it. He eventually filed bankruptcy. The ground loop is buried about 5' deep. It has about 6-8 loops with the header buried outside. I've managed to add water every few months and keep the unit going until now. It ran dry and the pumps burned up. I called the service company recommended by the Carrier distributor in our area, and $2500.00 and 3 weeks later it was running again. (Very few service companies in my area understand how to repair these systems)Within 72 hours the new pumps were burned up, and the system was still full of water. I figure their must have been air in the ground loop that restricted the water flow and over worked the pumps. I asked Carrier to get involved because the service company wouldn't stand behind their work and they didn't know what they did wrong. Carrier confirmed that the system probably had air in the line, but they didn't have access to a high flow pump to fix it. It was at this time they recommended the replacement of the system. They also say that most of their Geothermal customers have traded out their systems in their area. I talked to one of these customers, and they say Carrier recommended the exchange for their system as well) A local service company is currently installing my new Infinity system. The Geothermal units are in my garage, and hopefully, I will have a new system installed by the end of the week. THe installer of the Geothermal system was R and R Heating and Air(James Roberts). There are actually other issues with my system. Undersized air return, sensors mounted in the wrong place, leaky overflow pan(Basement flooded twice), leaky duct work... Very shooty work! Although expensive, I am happy to be getting rid of a very problematic system.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Posts
    1,874
    I don't see your location in your profile .
    If you try to fail, and succeed.
    Which have you done ?



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Central Kansas
    Posts
    1,145
    Since this is an international site (we still count Canada as a nation, right. I thought the attempted Canada sale failed?) there is no need to name names, but that's OK. Sounds to me like a complicated series of installation failures - the #1 problem with all HVAC systems stems from installer problems. <OK, I have no valid, substantiated data to support that claim, but let's say I'm right for the fun of it> I guess to correct the problems would result in great expense and you have probably suffered more than necessary. GSHP were cussed around this region for quite some time now... all due to systems being improperly installed.

    Correcting ductwork problems will help your new system out immensely. I'm assuming the new firm has sent someone out to examine the system for details needed to bring it up to proper working order. I feel for you, as there is a rebirth of GSHP in our region and we are helping lead it. Funny... a gas utility installing these kind of systems, who would think a utility doing a consciensious thing for a customer like reducing energy costs?... Anyway, the latest generation of GSHP systems in this area are owned by happy customers. Many of the older system owners will never recommend them due to problems with air, leaks, under/over sizing, oddly sized filters only available at great cost, companies out of business as yours, etc. Best luck, at least you are getting a quality system, but the old system proves the point stated here constantly - it's not the Brands, but the Hands that install it that count.
    Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is already made up.

  7. #7
    I appreciate the dialog related to my Geothermal Experience. Upon selecting a Geothermal Unit, I knew there was a premium associated with the system, and I didn't mind paying for a quality enrgy saving system. We had all the bells and whistles. Ozone, elector-static Filters, Outside Air Exchanger, Humidifyer, 7 zones, UV Lamps on the coils, etc....

    I still think a quality air system is worth while. I am currently having the Infintiy SYstem installed with the previous options. I am usning a local installer with lots of references.

    I have to agree, the most important item related to a Heat pump installation the experience of the installer.(The equipment brand is secondary) I have noticed that in many cases the installer isn't properly trained or qualified to install large systems.

    Thanks again for the dialog!


  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Ft.Worth,Tx
    Posts
    4,584
    Originally posted by dtipainter
    My Geothermal system is less than 4 years old, and Carrier has recommended that it be removed and replaced with an Infinity Air Source System. Supposedly, Carrier is giving me a very good price on the equipment to facilitate the conversion; however, it is still a significant amount of money to spend on a four year old system. The problem is with the ground loop, and Carrier doesn't know how to fix it.

    Is there a used market for this type of equipment? Two 4 ton compressors and two air handling systems. I would accept just about any resonable offer, and I can ship the units.

    Most drillers of ground source heat pumps warranty there wells for 50 years. I would try and find out who the drilling contractor was and ask him to repair the wells..Geo-Thermal is still cheaper to operate than air-to-air if set-up properly..
    "Everyday above ground, is a good day".
    "But everyday that you have made a difference in someones life, may insure you stay above ground a little longer".<aircooled>

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    5

    geo problems

    My system has been great..4 years so far, better than air source in pacific northwest. Probably due to 2 factors..I did not let the pe salesmen talk me into a slinky layout (Overlapping coils) to save space, and I oversized the ground loop slightly. I have seen too many problems with compressors not being able to handle undersized loops. Second, I made sure that system held test pressure for a long time before burying it. (and the header was easily accessable). No leaks= no problems,
    Just like air source systems.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Posts
    161
    aircooled-
    I don't think this person had a well driller. From what I understand this is a 5' deep trench design with slinky loops. Anybody with a backhoe can install it. They probably were not properly trained in the weld fusing (or whatever it is called) technique. One of the joints probably is leaking. I guess there is no chance in finding the leak.

    I don't understand why other people in the area are also giving up on geothermal. Maybe it was the same lousy installers.

    Brent

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Ft.Worth,Tx
    Posts
    4,584

    Thumbs down Used Geo-Thermal vs Carrier..LOL

    I was not here when he descibed slinky loops , that is were the problem is. We have installed a couple of these in ponds and they were more trouble than they were worth..


    If you need to purge air out of system, go to highest point of inlet water,at pete's plug fill slowly with water and then let run for min.(1) hour, then highest point drain air off system at inlet pumps..

    But, since your set on changing to air-to-air be sure and get yourself a 10 year extended warranty on that system..

    You will need it.
    "Everyday above ground, is a good day".
    "But everyday that you have made a difference in someones life, may insure you stay above ground a little longer".<aircooled>

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Derby City
    Posts
    3,973
    Market for the used equipment? Yeah, they're called 'boat anchors.' Hind sight is 20 - 20. Geothermal is h-i-s-t-o-r-y. The very problems identified in this thread, are the very reasons (enough in and of themselves) to stay away from the geothermal. The incentives would have to be VERY strong for me to deal with the same guy that put it in to begin with. That's like rewarding 'bad behavior.' I may have mis-spoke. Doesn't sound like you are talking to the original contractor. My apologies.
    Everyone has a purpose in life..........even if it's to be a bad example.

    Seek first to understand, before seeking to be understood.

  13. #13
    gto boy Guest
    sorry about typing holding baby,wife out.we had a guy that contractors sold him 9 systems in 12 years.he drives for porsche so money was not the object and everyone took it from him. i got a well guy out there and loop leaked,it was going to be cheaper to go with 3 infinity then to redo well.it ran under wall and driveway.they love it and wrote a letter that makes you cry like when old yeller died.

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