Heat Pump Recommendation

[jw1957]

I am currently stationed in Iraq, and got an e-mail from my wife that our heat pump went out.

She got several referrals and all referred same company. Here's my problem:

He recommended a Janitrol system - 3 1/2 Ton, 13 SEER (we have 1 story 2900 sq. foot house) to replace the current split system.

When I research Heat Pumps, Goodman/Janitrol is not a highly recommended system - one quote "They're junk why do you think they're so cheap!" I do not see much good said about them.

Additionally, on the ACEEE Most efficient Appliance List, they are middle of the list for 3 1/2 ton heat pumps. American Standard and Trane seem to be the most efficient.

Lastly, the new standards for 2006 are in effect and 13 SEER is the minimum standard. I see to get a $300 tax credit you need a minimum 15 SEER system. On the ACEEE list, it lists min - max range. Which qualifies for the tax credit?

Please recommend a manufacturer/system and whether it's worth it to get a 15 SEER system for the tax credit.

Thanks, JW in Iraq.

[dave82323]

what part of the country is your home in ? If in Az let me know and I will take a look and help if possible.. proud to help a soldier.......

[jw1957]

Dave; Thanks for your quick reply, and offer. Unfortunately, we live in Norfolk, VA, so it would be a long drive for you.

[dan sw fl]

Originally posted by jw1957
live in Norfolk, VA

You likely need at least a 4-ton unit for Norfolk VA
if the 2,900 S.F. is the A/C area and
the total glass area is > 380 Sq Feet.

Current sytstem is __-ton?

Do you have house plans for 2,900 S.F. 1-story?
Area (757)

S M I Mechanical 588-6300 1060 W 35th St Norfolk 23508

Johns Brothers 852-3300 1384 Ingleside Rd Norfolk 23502

Parker Services Inc 397-4952 1906 Frederick Blvd Portsmouth 23707

J F Whitlow Jr and Sons Inc 399-1714 703 Confederate Ave
Portsmouth, VA 23704

http://www.trane.com/residential/pro...mps/xl16i.aspx

Add almost 1800 (or maybe $1,500 net) to your previou$ quote for TRANE XL16i heat pump.
Energy savings might be about 15% (or $300+ per year).

MOD: Slight exception to HVAC-Talk rules may apply to
assisting an overseas service man in a timely manner.
I appreciate your understanding.

[Edited by dan sw fl on 01-24-2006 at 06:10 AM]

[jw1957]

Dan SW FL; Thanks for the quick reply and the details, with all of the dealers.

I will e-mail my wife and get the current size system. I believe it's a 3 1/2 since that's what the guy wants to replace.

I do not have the house plans. It's a large ranch, with a room over the garage. Counting the ROG, it's a 4 bedroom, 3 bath, with large (20X25) family room. About 15 windows, of which 5 are large 3 section picture types.

I'm inclined to go with the larger 4 ton system since when I get back we want to do a modest addition and add about 500 sq. ft., although we'll replace the window with new more efficient ones at the same time.

I see on the ACEEE list that in the 4 ton range the Trane XL19i is the most efficient system. American Standard is next, and I think they're made by the same manufacturer. Is that correct and would you recommend the American Standard?

It looks like the more expensive system pays for itself in a couple of years in energy savings. I think the XL19i also qualifies for the new tax credit since it's listed at max 16.6 SEER. Do you think that's correct?

Thanks again for your prompt response. JW

[Edited by jw1957 on 01-24-2006 at 06:02 AM]

[dan sw fl]

TRANE is American Standard.
XL19i is a bit more pricey.

5-ton is definitely required if you plan to add 500 S.F.

3.5 ton is totally inadequate based on your future plans
(and most likely already is based on current set-up).

http://www.trane.com/residential/pro...mps/xl19i.aspx

[jw1957]

OK, I think I'm headed in the right direction, thanks.

It looks like Trane is the way to go.

I think the main difference between the XL19i and the XL16i is that the 19i has two compressors. Is that better? Would you recommend the 19i over the 16i? Is it worth the price difference?

JW

[heatpumpguru]

They both are good,Trane guy can check HSPF which is also needed for Tax Credit.The 16i does not uses freon or R22,variable speed a must and get 10 year parts and labor.Thanks for your service!!!

[probsolved]

JW--First of all, thanks for your service!
So I am sure that you have read through enough of these posts to know that the only way to determine the size of your heat pump is with a Heat Loss analysis. When your wife calls for an appointment, have her ask the sales rep "what size do you think we will need?" If she gets any answer other than "only by doing a heat loss will I know for sure" she needs to hang up. Have her keep calling other companies until she gets the right answer.
As for a 16i vs a 19i, if you ever want to zone your home (different thermostats controlling different parts of the house) you cannot have a 16i.
Good luck and be safe!

[jw1957]

Well my experience is stuff also breaks when you're deployed...

Thanks for your support.

The current system is a 3 1/2 ton, and we had an earlier quote for that size system. (we've been limping along w/the idea of redoing HVAC w/remodel). I guess the bill is finally due.

Thanks for the gouge on zoning, because that is what we were intending to do with the remodel. Why can't you zone w/a 16i?

I will tell my wife about the Heat Loss Analysis.

Again, thanks for your help. JW

[e_w_g0339]

In 1993, shortly after Hugo, I replaced my heat pump with a Carrier 2 1/2 ton 12 SEER unit. I live on the coast of SC.

Several days ago I replaced this unit with an American Standard 3 ton 13 SEER unit. The cost for 14 SEER was $300 more.

My house is about 1200 sq. ft., one story, and don't think would gain all that much by increase SEER rating. May be different your situation?
Electric bill not all that much in my house. July, August
maybe $150.00.

My main reason for upgrade is hopefully improvement in quality (old unit leaking freon) and personnel servicing new unit.

I did find excessive wear, one side, cooling coils and installed American Air & Water UV light in new unit, return side. Other side of coil like new? Blower old unit bad shape (rust, balance, etc.)

Ernest

[probsolved]

>>Thanks for the gouge on zoning, because that is what we were intending to do with the remodel. Why can't you zone w/a 16i?

The 16i won't do it. I have no idea why they would design a new unit that doesn't, but they did. That being said, the 2 compressor 19i will as well as the single stage 14i.

[morris-jenkins]

just a tip that alot of ppl seem to over look when upping the tonnage of a system is the return duct work make sure they check out hte duct work and that its sized right for the unit you want if its not it wont run as efficiently as you paid for

[jw1957]

OK - My wife got the Trane reps out. Did the heat loss analysis. Recommended a 3 1/2 ton. Neither the 16i nor 19i come in 3 1/2 ton. Said would have to redo duct work to go to 4 ton, but not really needed. Recommended the 3 1/2 ton 15i (16 SEER), which looks pretty good on the internet.

I see the 15i and 14i are grouped together. Since we plan to do an addition (and that won't be until later in the year after I get home), I'm thinking that I can go with the 15i now, and look at adding a second zone and heat pump and redo the duct work when we do the room addition.

Here's my final questions:

Is the 15i worth it?
Can you zone the 15i?
Does it make sense to go with a 3 1/2 ton now and add the additional unit when we add the add'l sq ft?

Thanks again for everyone's help. JW

[tulsatwisters]

The rating of equipment by various sources is subjective at best. American Standard owns Trane (or you could say is Trane) and most of the models manufactured are basically the same except for the nameplate. This could be said in some part as to Ruud/Rheem or Carrier/Bryant, etc, etc, however those facts are basically unimportant in this particular discussion. The heating and cooling industry as to manufacture of equipment is very well regulated and so, unlikely that any manufacturer of equipment would be allowed to produce “junk”. My personal opinion (again personal opinion) is that most brands of equipment for the most part are fairly equal. The difference in “my” opinion is the type of installation done. Not just in the equipment itself (even though this is of vast importance) but the design and sizing of the ductwork must be taken into account. If you have a below par installation of equipment and or a below par duct system, any brand of equipment used is likely not to perform to its full potential and break downs and a shorter lifespan can be expected. Most major brands of equipment require you to become a dealer in order to purchase and install their equipment. The idea is that a known dealer is more likely to do a good installation. Goodman on the other hand is available to most any licensed contractor and in the past some unlicensed contractors, and so more prone to a below par installation and or lack of possible needed modifications to the rest of the existing system and or ductwork and are so more prone to failure. As to size without knowing the city and the way the home is constructed to properly do a heat load calculation, confirming any size would be impossible. As to SEER or EER rating of equipment, normally the retail cost as to payback on lower utility bills and any tax breaks offered. The amount of time needed to “break even” is normally longer than the average homeowner stays in a particular location, not to mention the time needed to receive a positive payback on the investment. Any 401K or CD will have a better payback percentage verse time and is a better investment of funds. One option is to have a relative or close family friend that is in the trade to provide the equipment at cost and do the installation for free, but even then, the payback period because of the higher wholesale cost on the higher efficiency equipment, can take longer and be a less profitable investment of funds than other types of investments available. As a side note and with no way to confirm what I am about to say, a 3.5-Ton System (and assuming the existing air handler and evaporator coil match the 3.5-Ton recommendation from the contractor in question) on a 2,900 square foot home seems at face value to be a bit on the small side, unless you have an extremely tight home with little glass area and are located in a very mild climate. Again, I have no way to confirm this is accurate, without doing a heat load calculation, seeing the existing system and ductwork.

[tulsatwisters]

I see that you added to and modified your original question. With the limited amount of factual information available, a correct answer to your question is impossible. Some of the information needed would be as to size of the room addition and are we talking one room or several, etc, etc, etc.. The type of ductwork and its location and the ability to adapt and modify also has to be taken into account. A guess and by-golly answer would be that on an average one room addition, and having a ductwork design that would allow for modification and depending on is this a package unit or split system, would be to increase the size of the existing system (all of the existing system). There are a variety of options that do not include adding another central system or increasing the size of the existing system, that would provide heat and cooling to a small room addition. The question seems simple, but in reality a considerable amount of information would be needed in order to give you accurate and vial able options.

[probsolved]

Well it is GREAT to hear that the heat loss was done!!

So zoning is done in two different ways, the first is with two seperate systems running each zone. The second is with 2 thermostats & mechanical dampers in the ductwork. Mechanical zoning can be tricky and not everyone has it figured out. If you go that route, I would want to know that the install company has gone to some classes.

The need for zoning is really dependent on you addition, size, windows, location (upstairs) etc.

On to the 15i, yes it can be used in zoning. Higher effeciency is always worth it. Let's be realistic--electric prices are not going down and who knows what it will do during the lifetime of the heat pump.

(Just so you know, a 4 ton 19i with the 2 compressors can run at 50%, 70% or 100% capacity. Meaning a 2 ton, 3 ton and 4 ton unit.)