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  1. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooked View Post
    Okay, were cool.

    But you do believe in cold fusion.....don't you? Just Kidding!

  2. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by dijit View Post
    But what about refrigeration and ACs. The sun is their enemy. Heat is their enemy. The colder the outside air and the less sun hitting the coil the better. The COP is not above one because of the sun, it is above one because it moves heat, and doesn't create it. Yes, the heat from the air comes from the sun. when you are heating, but when you look at cooling that explanation for cop above one doesn't make any sense. The sun is fighting the AC or refrigeration equipment in that case, not helping it yet cop remains well above 1. In fact COP is often times higher in cooling mode than heating mode!

    And I would argue your point that geothermal heat comes from the sun. It comes from the Earth. Remember, the earth used to be a big glob of magma and has very slowly cooled over lots and lots of years (even though the sun has been shining on it). eventually it got cold enough that the outside of that ball of magma solidified, but the inside remained molten because it hasn't cooled enough. That is where geothermal energy comes from and is why it is warm underground in the winter, even when the top part is frozen. If you dig through permafrost, you will still find warm ground once you get deep enough. If the sun stopped shining, you would still find heat below the Earth's surface for a long long long long time.
    The surface of the Earth is heated by the Sun, not by heat sources that are miles beneath the surface. That is why caves maintain a constant year round temperature. Caves are too far away from the hot stuff inside of the planet to affect them.

    The Sun is the reason we need cooling, because it is what is providing heat. Any geo manufacturer will tell you that it is the heat from the Sun that warms the ground to a constant of about 15 degrees below the average annual ambient air temperature. It is solar heat that is being absorbed from the ground for heating and the mass of the ground that absorbs the heat from the building during the cooling season.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  3. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by dijit View Post
    Sorry, just haven't gotten around to sending in the paperwork. I will get it done here soon. Got a PM from Big Brother telling me not to post here until then.

    And Van Gogh's ear, didn't mean to be too rough with you on my last post. Just hear a lot of myths in this field and I feel a need to bust them as they come along. Not saying I know everything there is to know about it but, I enjoy the theory more than a lot of people.
    Yea, one huge myth is that geothermal systems are absorbing heat from magma
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  4. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by dijit View Post
    If you can't even understand an analogy you must be one if the people George is talking about in this video didn't take me long to realize just like he said. Just thought I could talk some sense into you.
    http://youtu.be/8rh6qqsmxNs

    Why don't you go tell a thermodynamics expert that the reason an AC has a COP above one is because the "sun is adding energy". Dumbest thing I have heard a "Pro" say. Yeah, you are right they have some magical device that is invisible that pulls energy out of the sky and turns it into "coolth" which makes an AC work more efficiently. That makes a lot of sense. You just keep on believing that.
    dijit, seriously, you are being awfully arrogant about misinformation that you have come to believe is true. Instead of watching YouTube videos, you would be better off reading up on some of the things you have wrongly stated. Start off with any geothermal site discussing where geothermal heat originates and what is the main source of the Earth's atmospheric heat.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  5. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by dijit View Post
    Why don't you go tell a thermodynamics expert that the reason an AC has a COP above one is because the "sun is adding energy". Dumbest thing I have heard a "Pro" say. Yeah, you are right they have some magical device that is invisible that pulls energy out of the sky and turns it into "coolth" which makes an AC work more efficiently. That makes a lot of sense. You just keep on believing that.
    First of all, looky back here:

    http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showpost.ph...2&postcount=41Way before you spoke of moving energy.

    Next, ask your thermodynamics expert buddy to calculate the COP without using a value for the energy moved. COP means "Coefficient of Performance" try calculating that without including a value of some form of heat.

    The calculation is COP= Qh/W

    Where
    Qh = heat supplied to the hot reservoir (by the "Sun adding energy" or do you think that comes from magma too?)
    W= work consumed by the heat pump

    I never said the energy was created magically. I said that the major heat source is the the sun, which it is, and if you don't understand that, you have never done a load calculation.

    Furthermore, temperature difference and the relationship between pressure and temperature to create that difference is the mechanism responsible for the refrigeration cycle working at all. Heat ALWAYS travels from hot to cold. The sun is not the enemy of the Air Conditioner it is the reason for it and heat is the reason why it works.

    Finally, which is more efficient, your tanker hauling a full tank or that same tanker hauling half a tank. The one hauling half a tank will get better mileage, but the one hauling a full load can be calculated as being more efficient IF YOU INCLUDE THE LOAD BEING TRANSFERRED.

  6. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    Yea, one huge myth is that geothermal systems are absorbing heat from magma
    It's absorbing heat from the crust, not magma. But some geothermal systems do absorb heat from magma. They dig down close to a column of magma which has penetrated into the crust (Think Yellowstone. The geysers get their heat not from the sun but from volcanic activity) . They dig close to this magma (in places such as Iceland) just close enough to get increased heat and not melt their pipes. They pump water through and it acts as a boiler. This water turns turbines to create electricity.

  7. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    The surface of the Earth is heated by the Sun, not by heat sources that are miles beneath the surface. That is why caves maintain a constant year round temperature. Caves are too far away from the hot stuff inside of the planet to affect them.

    The Sun is the reason we need cooling, because it is what is providing heat. Any geo manufacturer will tell you that it is the heat from the Sun that warms the ground to a constant of about 15 degrees below the average annual ambient air temperature. It is solar heat that is being absorbed from the ground for heating and the mass of the ground that absorbs the heat from the building during the cooling season.
    This is not surface heat, it is heat under the ground. Caves are cool but not absolute zero. Explain how permafrost only goes so deep and then it is warmer when you dig deep enough. It is not solar heat, it is geo heat. That's why it is called geothermal energy. Yes sun does effect the ground temperature, but you get deep enough, it is the same temp year round even if it is blocking solar heat because of permafrost.

  8. #73
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    all i can say is that vidio was realy funny

  9. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    dijit, seriously, you are being awfully arrogant about misinformation that you have come to believe is true. Instead of watching YouTube videos, you would be better off reading up on some of the things you have wrongly stated. Start off with any geothermal site discussing where geothermal heat originates and what is the main source of the Earth's atmospheric heat.
    Atmospheric heat does mainly come from the sun. never said it didn't you are missing the point.

    Atmospheric heat is not geothermal heat. The atmosphere ends at the earth's surface.

  10. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by vangoghsear View Post
    First of all, looky back here:

    http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showpost.ph...2&postcount=41Way before you spoke of moving energy.

    Next, ask your thermodynamics expert buddy to calculate the COP without using a value for the energy moved. COP means "Coefficient of Performance" try calculating that without including a value of some form of heat.

    The calculation is COP= Qh/W

    Where
    Qh = heat supplied to the hot reservoir (by the "Sun adding energy" or do you think that comes from magma too?)
    W= work consumed by the heat pump

    I never said the energy was created magically. I said that the major heat source is the the sun, which it is, and if you don't understand that, you have never done a load calculation.

    Furthermore, temperature difference and the relationship between pressure and temperature to create that difference is the mechanism responsible for the refrigeration cycle working at all. Heat ALWAYS travels from hot to cold. The sun is not the enemy of the Air Conditioner it is the reason for it and heat is the reason why it works.

    Finally, which is more efficient, your tanker hauling a full tank or that same tanker hauling half a tank. The one hauling half a tank will get better mileage, but the one hauling a full load can be calculated as being more efficient IF YOU INCLUDE THE LOAD BEING TRANSFERRED.
    Wow, I really cant teach away an inability to understand basics.

    It is called a metaphor. Like using water to explain electric principals.

    And The sun does not always improve COP. That is patently absurd and false. Just because you think it does doesn't make it so. COP is above one because you are moving heat. Not changing potential energy to heat energy. It takes less energy to move heat than create it (by converting another energy source to heat). Yes this heat sometimes comes from the sun. If you are air conditioning a room, it may come from body heat, heat from machines, etc. Sometimes solar-created heat isn't even involved.

    Are you going to say body heat, heat from motors, heat from melting steel, all comes from the Sun?

    That same equation applies, but it refers to heat, not necessarily solar heat.

  11. #76
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    Mar 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by beeninyourshoes View Post
    Depends actually! Let's say you leave for a week and put the heat on 55 for that week...you come home one night in February in a New England winter. Think a 300 heat pump will heat your home that night with a 25 ambient? Now let's take the SAME scenario and hit the same home the same night with a 3000 degree nat gas furnace w a comercial Honeywell true steam ($ if u install yourself = 9 gallons of water a day) humidifier. That 3000 heat is DRY , so it must be humidified. That same home will be 72 within 3 hours; I kid you not. I DISAGREE with heat pumps in the north east. Sorry & I don't care who it pisses off. If u run a heat pump constantly without leaving? Ok maybe, but it's going to cost you $$$$ way more than gas will. This is JUST plain common sence. The problem is that common sence is the least of the seances! So I'll spell it out in plain English for you. 300 degrees is 10% of 3000 degrees. Get it now? The guy above here who said he tore out his oil furnace for a heat pump who lives in the N east??? Wait till Jan / Feb comes! They put electric heat here in S Florida since the begining of time for a reason. Then they first burned coal then oil in the N east for a reason. Probably because the 300 degrees electric OR a heat pump kicks out won't cut it up there. Now redundancy, dual stage , whatever U call it...... Heat pump w a gas furnace? = OK. But most heat pumps have electric as "emergency" or dual, or backup heat. Sure gas prices skyrocketed. But us nat gas 10 times the cost than electricity? And 10 is a NICE round figure. I lived in S Florida all my life & Mass all my life. I think this is right there for anyone to see if you just think it through. Call ANY manufacturer rep and get an honest answer to this issue. Let me know what they say!
    We try to be as positive on here as we can be. But I have to say that rarely have I disagreed more with a post than I do with this one. Some serious reading on the issues, advantages, and disadvantages of heat pumps will change your opinion of them I do believe.
    Bad information is worse than no information at all.

    There are three kinds of people in this world. Those who can count and those who can't!

  12. #77
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    If your point is that in heating only the heat energy comes from the atmosphere which comes from the sun, then you are correct. As long as the coil is in the air and not underground. But you still have a high COP in refrigeration. That heat comes from many sources. And it does not increase COP. COP is above one simply because you are moving heat and not creating it(converting from electrical energy to heat or chemical energy to heat). Whether you are heating or cooling with a heat pump this is true.

    It is not a heat producing device but a heat moving device. Yes if you are heating something that heat has to come from somewhere in order to transfer it to the space.(doesn't matter where it comes from as long as it is there) If that is what you were saying then I misunderstood your "sun" post and I apologize.

    But you cant say COP is above one because of a hidden source in an air conditioning. There is no hidden source. You are just moving heat, the same as in heating.

  13. #78
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    Sep 2008
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    Guys,

    Does it really matter to a homeowner where the heat comes from of if the source of the heat affects COP?

    This discussion has reached the point where it is more confusing than enlightening to a layperson.


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