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  1. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    The heat in the air that is transferred to the indoor coil in the heat mode is provided by the sun. Even geothermal is a solar heated system.
    But what about refrigeration and ACs. The sun is their enemy. Heat is their enemy. The colder the outside air and the less sun hitting the coil the better. The COP is not above one because of the sun, it is above one because it moves heat, and doesn't create it. Yes, the heat from the air comes from the sun. when you are heating, but when you look at cooling that explanation for cop above one doesn't make any sense. The sun is fighting the AC or refrigeration equipment in that case, not helping it yet cop remains well above 1. In fact COP is often times higher in cooling mode than heating mode!

    And I would argue your point that geothermal heat comes from the sun. It comes from the Earth. Remember, the earth used to be a big glob of magma and has very slowly cooled over lots and lots of years (even though the sun has been shining on it). eventually it got cold enough that the outside of that ball of magma solidified, but the inside remained molten because it hasn't cooled enough. That is where geothermal energy comes from and is why it is warm underground in the winter, even when the top part is frozen. If you dig through permafrost, you will still find warm ground once you get deep enough. If the sun stopped shining, you would still find heat below the Earth's surface for a long long long long time.

  2. #54
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    And before you ask, as I know you will...

    Where did the energy come from to make the early Earth a big ball of magma?

    Glad you asked. It started out as a big cloud of dust. The distance between the particles is potential energy. As the cloud coalesced, because of gravity (all matter has a gravitational force) that potential energy turned in to kinetic energy, and it coalesced even more, until the particles started bumping into each other and sliding across one another creating heat by way of friction. As the dust got closer and closer, there was more and more heat until it started to coalesce into bigger pieces which bumped and ground across one another and got hotter. Think about the pressure at the center of the earth. Extremely high. well that pressure started to build, compressing the pieces into each other with more friction as well as increased temperature from compressing this stuff at very high pressures (think about a refrigeration compressor... compression increases temperature). This compression and friction made it all hot enough to melt...... into that big ball of magma which eventually cooled enough for the crust to solidify.

    Where did that big cloud of dust come from?

    The Big Bang

    Where did the Big Bang come from?

    I don't know, ask Stephen Hawking!!

  3. #55
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    dijit, you have to consider the entire system to see all of the energy sources involved in a heat pump.

    In cooling mode a heat pump moves heat from the house to the outdoors. If you just consider the energy used to move it, you will find that it takes every bit of energy that is input into the system (in moved heat and efficiency losses).

    You must consider how much energy as heat is moved in order to surpass or even approach an EER of 3.412. That energy comes mainly from heat from the sun hitting the house, the air being warmed that works in as infiltration or outside air, and a few miscellaneous items such as people load and electric loads inside.

  4. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    .........Why would you do such a thing on a site such as this one? I assumed you made that comment for the benefit of non-professionals, not to "bait" professionals. There is a name for persons who bait others to post emotional posts. They are called
    I do live under a bridge and I sometimes charge a passage fee to go under it. In essence it's a "troll toll". My therapist says I should cut it out but he's a troll too.

    Seriously, my apologies. My comment wasn't meant to cause discord but rather to point out and make the thread participants think about the conversion of energy from one form to another.
    The picture in my avatar is of the Houston Ship Channel and was taken from my backyard. I like to sit outside and slap mosquitos while watching countless supertankers, barges and cargo ships of every shape and size carry all sorts of deadly toxins to and fro. It's really beautiful at times.....just don't eat the three eyed fish....

    `. .` .>(((>

    `... `. .` .>(((>

    .` .>(((>

    LMAOSHMSFOAIDMT

  5. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by vangoghsear View Post
    dijit, you have to consider the entire system to see all of the energy sources involved in a heat pump.

    In cooling mode a heat pump moves heat from the house to the outdoors. If you just consider the energy used to move it, you will find that it takes every bit of energy that is input into the system (in moved heat and efficiency losses).

    You must consider how much energy as heat is moved in order to surpass or even approach an EER of 3.412. That energy comes mainly from heat from the sun hitting the house, the air being warmed that works in as infiltration or outside air, and a few miscellaneous items such as people load and electric loads inside.
    Well, we are making headway. You started off making sense. Yes it takes more energy to move the heat than it theoretically would because of losses. This means it is not 100% efficient as compared to if there was no friction or losses. That is why it is not an above parity device. But that "heat from the sun" or from people is in no way increasing its efficiency. It is the thing being moved, it is merely a passenger.

    Does the trailer on a truck increase efficiency? Or is it better off without it?
    Does heat inside and outside the house make the AC's work easier or harder. There is only one correct answer. If the sun had not heated the air inside and out, and the air was 72 degrees, the AC wouldn't have to work at all. If you think the sun is the reason COP can be above one, you do not understand the refrigeration cycle and what is going on.

    Think of it as a tanker truck that is moving gasoline. That truck is burning gas to move the gas (or in our case using energy to move energy). It can move more BTUs worth of gas than it uses to do so, just like a heat pump. You could say the ratio of gas moved to gas burned is the Coefficient Of Performance of moving the gas.

    They even have ACs on the space station which is in a vacuum (space). The condenser is always in the shade. Why? Because the sun only hurts its efficiency. The lack of sun (In the shade in vacuum) is what makes it possible to live in space. If they put it in the sun, it wouldn't work.

  6. #58
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  7. #59
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    Sorry, just haven't gotten around to sending in the paperwork. I will get it done here soon. Got a PM from Big Brother telling me not to post here until then.

    And Van Gogh's ear, didn't mean to be too rough with you on my last post. Just hear a lot of myths in this field and I feel a need to bust them as they come along. Not saying I know everything there is to know about it but, I enjoy the theory more than a lot of people.

  8. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremyhall.tech.sc View Post
    what i dont get or atleast never understood is this, why run the IDF in defrost at all?
    If the indoor fan didn't run during defrost it would cancel out a lot of the heat created by the outdoor fan not running so the defrost wouldn't be as effective. It would be nice not to blow that cold air back into the house though.
    Gary
    -----------
    http://www.oceanhvac.com
    An engineer designs what he would never work on.
    A technician works on what he would never design.

  9. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by dijit View Post
    .........Think of it as a tanker truck that is moving gasoline. That truck is burning gas to move the gas (or in our case using energy to move energy). It can move more BTUs worth of gas than it uses to do so, just like a heat pump. You could say the ratio of gas moved to gas burned is the Coefficient Of Performance of moving the gas.............
    Not quite, the gas the truck uses as it's being burned and converted to heat is kinetic energy at work. The unburned gas in the tank being moved is potential energy. Apples to oranges not apples to apples.

    Quote Originally Posted by dijit View Post
    They even have ACs on the space station which is in a vacuum (space). The condenser is always in the shade. Why? Because the sun only hurts its efficiency. The lack of sun (In the shade in vacuum) is what makes it possible to live in space. If they put it in the sun, it wouldn't work.
    Why don't they just crack a window and let some cold in?
    The picture in my avatar is of the Houston Ship Channel and was taken from my backyard. I like to sit outside and slap mosquitos while watching countless supertankers, barges and cargo ships of every shape and size carry all sorts of deadly toxins to and fro. It's really beautiful at times.....just don't eat the three eyed fish....

    `. .` .>(((>

    `... `. .` .>(((>

    .` .>(((>

    LMAOSHMSFOAIDMT

  10. #62
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Cooked View Post
    Not quite, the gas the truck uses as it's being burned and converted to heat is kinetic energy at work. The unburned gas in the tank being moved is potential energy. Apples to oranges not apples to apples.



    Why don't they just crack a window and let some cold in?
    If you can't even understand an analogy you must be one if the people George is talking about in this video didn't take me long to realize just like he said. Just thought I could talk some sense into you.
    http://youtu.be/8rh6qqsmxNs

    Why don't you go tell a thermodynamics expert that the reason an AC has a COP above one is because the "sun is adding energy". Dumbest thing I have heard a "Pro" say. Yeah, you are right they have some magical device that is invisible that pulls energy out of the sky and turns it into "coolth" which makes an AC work more efficiently. That makes a lot of sense. You just keep on believing that.

  11. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by dijit View Post
    If you can't even understand an analogy you must be one if the people George is talking about in this video didn't take me long to realize just like he said. Just thought I could talk some sense into you.
    http://youtu.be/8rh6qqsmxNs

    Why don't you go tell a thermodynamics expert that the reason an AC has a COP above one is because the "sun is adding energy". Dumbest thing I have heard a "Pro" say. Yeah, you are right they have some magical device that is invisible that pulls energy out of the sky and turns it into "coolth" which makes an AC work more efficiently. That makes a lot of sense. You just keep on believing that.
    Hold on dijit, I never said that. I think you are confusing me with vangohsear. If you look back at my previous post I pointed out that overunity devices don't really exist. And I never bought into that horrible conspiracy theory that the sun adds energy. I did however make an attempt to point out the difference in kinetic energy and potential energy as a result of your post.
    The picture in my avatar is of the Houston Ship Channel and was taken from my backyard. I like to sit outside and slap mosquitos while watching countless supertankers, barges and cargo ships of every shape and size carry all sorts of deadly toxins to and fro. It's really beautiful at times.....just don't eat the three eyed fish....

    `. .` .>(((>

    `... `. .` .>(((>

    .` .>(((>

    LMAOSHMSFOAIDMT

  12. #64
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    Ok, sorry.

    But it is still an analogy.

    People use analogies for talking about electricity too, they compare it to water pipes. That doesn't mean water is the same as electricity. Just a useful way to explain the concepts.

    Just an analogy.

    And I agree there are no overunity devices. I never said there were. I was just pointing out how heat pumps and combustion get heat in two different ways which explains why you can put in one amount of energy and get three times that back in heat. You are not creating heat, you are just moving it like my truck analogy. The heat energy is being moved from the inside out or the outside in. No energy or matter is being created or destroyed.

  13. #65
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    Okay, were cool.

    But you do believe in cold fusion.....don't you? Just Kidding!
    The picture in my avatar is of the Houston Ship Channel and was taken from my backyard. I like to sit outside and slap mosquitos while watching countless supertankers, barges and cargo ships of every shape and size carry all sorts of deadly toxins to and fro. It's really beautiful at times.....just don't eat the three eyed fish....

    `. .` .>(((>

    `... `. .` .>(((>

    .` .>(((>

    LMAOSHMSFOAIDMT

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