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  1. #40
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    Heat Pumps and Air Conditioners are a form of overunity device. In other words, they appear to achieve greater than 100% efficiency, but what they are doing is pulling their energy from a hidden source; in the case of A/C or H/P that source is the heat in the air, so the hidden source is the sun.

    As was stated, electric resistance heat is 100% efficient, you put 1 heat unit in, you get 1 heat unit out. The calculation for those readers who don't know it is 1 kW = 3412 BTU. However, that same kW used in an 3.0 COP heat pump will do 1 kW = 10,200 BTU or the equivelent of 3 kW of electric resistance heat.

  2. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by vangoghsear View Post
    Heat Pumps and Air Conditioners are a form of overunity device. In other words, they appear to achieve greater than 100% efficiency, but what they are doing is pulling their energy from a hidden source; in the case of A/C or H/P that source is the heat in the air, so the hidden source is the sun.

    As was stated, electric resistance heat is 100% efficient, you put 1 heat unit in, you get 1 heat unit out. The calculation for those readers who don't know it is 1 kW = 3412 BTU. However, that same kW used in an 3.0 COP heat pump will do 1 kW = 10,200 BTU or the equivelent of 3 kW of electric resistance heat.
    It takes less energy to move/transfer heat that already exists than to generate it from resistance or combustion.

  3. #42
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    Well stated vangoghsear. You cannot actually have more then 100% of something, but you can pay less to supplement what you produce.

    Just curious, are you Van Gogh's sent ear or the one he kept?
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  4. #43
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    My user name is one I use on a music website. I am also an artist and I play guitar for fun, but I have always had to struggle to make music, so when I joined the music website, I was going to use the old joke I have "Van Goghs' ear for music" and I shortened it (cut it off, so to speak) to vangoghsear.

    Now returning you to HVAC Talk.




  5. #44
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    Ah .. so you're the one others mentioned as a guy who finds the static pressure by softly hitting the metallic ducts with a stick and listening to the sound produced with a stethoscope ?


  6. #45
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    Ah .. so you're the one others mentioned as a guy who finds the static pressure by softly hitting the metallic ducts with a stick and listening to the sound produced with a stethoscope ?
    Sure, with a quick side glance at the Pitot-static tube guage.


  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by vangoghsear View Post


    My user name is one I use on a music website. I am also an artist and I play guitar for fun, but I have always had to struggle to make music, so when I joined the music website, I was going to use the old joke I have "Van Goghs' ear for music" and I shortened it (cut it off, so to speak) to vangoghsear.

    Now returning you to HVAC Talk.



    LOL! Thank you. There is usually an interresting story behind odd usernames, and yours didn't disappoint.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  8. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by vangoghsear View Post
    Heat Pumps and Air Conditioners are a form of overunity device. In other words, they appear to achieve greater than 100% efficiency, but what they are doing is pulling their energy from a hidden source; in the case of A/C or H/P that source is the heat in the air, so the hidden source is the sun
    Hmmm.......really. Maybe in some sort of theoretical framework do they appear to some to accomplish the impossible but they don't. And while an overunity device sounds really cool and some patents do exist for them one has never been built and verified through the scientific method. The first three laws of thermodynamics and the laws of conservation of energy cannot be ignored. A HP or AC uses a certain amount of energy to do a certain amount of work. It ALWAYS uses more power in watts than it removes or adds to an atmosphere. The difference in consumed power and apparent work can be accounted for from losses due to adiabatic compression, frictional losses and heat from current flow.

    Quote Originally Posted by vangoghsear View Post
    As was stated, electric resistance heat is 100% efficient, you put 1 heat unit in, you get 1 heat unit out.
    I'm glad you caught that. I actually threw it out there as bait expecting to get a bunch of hate mail. More explicitly, an electric resistance element whether in a toaster oven or HP furnace drops 100% of the voltage applied to it and converts it to heat.
    The picture in my avatar is of the Houston Ship Channel and was taken from my backyard. I like to sit outside and slap mosquitos while watching countless supertankers, barges and cargo ships of every shape and size carry all sorts of deadly toxins to and fro. It's really beautiful at times.....just don't eat the three eyed fish....

    ¯`·.¸¸ .·´¯`· .¸>÷÷(((°>

    `·.¸¸..· ´¯`·.¸ ¸.·´¯` ·.¸>÷÷(((°>

    .·´¯`· .¸>÷÷(((°>

    LMAOSHMSFOAIDMT

  9. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooked View Post
    Hmmm.......really. Maybe in some sort of theoretical framework do they appear to some to accomplish the impossible but they don't. And while an overunity device sounds really cool and some patents do exist for them one has never been built and verified through the scientific method. The first three laws of thermodynamics and the laws of conservation of energy cannot be ignored. A HP or AC uses a certain amount of energy to do a certain amount of work. It ALWAYS uses more power in watts than it removes or adds to an atmosphere. The difference in consumed power and apparent work can be accounted for from losses due to adiabatic compression, frictional losses and heat from current flow.
    You are confusing overunity device with perpetual motion of the second kind. Heat pumps do not produce more of the same energy that they use, they move more heat energy then the amount of electrical energy that they use. Therefore, the term "overunity device" is suitable to describe a heat pumps abilities.



    I'm glad you caught that. I actually threw it out there as bait expecting to get a bunch of hate mail. More explicitly, an electric resistance element whether in a toaster oven or HP furnace drops 100% of the voltage applied to it and converts it to heat.
    Why would you do such a thing on a site such as this one? I assumed you made that comment for the benefit of non-professionals, not to "bait" professionals. There is a name for persons who bait others to post emotional posts. They are called
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  10. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooked View Post
    Think what you could do with a 3000 degree furnace. Make horseshoes, cook hot dogs faster than a microwave, get rid of the clothes dryer....endless possibilities really.

    With all the discussion of what's cheaper, HP, resistance heat, oil or gas one thing that hasn't been brought up is the cost per btu. It varies wildly geographically.

    As for the original question, a HP in NJ, of course it will work. Will it need some type of supplemental backup, of course it will. Is electric resistance cheaper than gas or vice versa, depends on your area's cost per KWH, cost per 1000 cubic feet of natural gas or cost per gallon of propane.

    As far as electric backup heat or any other electric heater they are 100% efficient.
    You may have missed my post but that is a good point.

    Quote Originally Posted by dijit View Post
    electric resistance heat can only give you maximum 1 unit of energy out for every one in. A heat pump will give you 2.5 to 3.8 or so units of energy out for every one in depending on conditions and efficiency of the unit. Gas heat will give you anywhere from .75 to .95 or so units of energy out per unit in depending on the furnace. So you have to compare those efficiency numbers to the cost of the energy per btu. This will vary by location as well as whether or not you use gas for other things or just for heating. You have to take into account the whole cost and not just the cost per unit of energy (monthly service fees to have gas connected, etc.).
    gas is about what 1020 btu/ ft^3 multiplied by your efficiency which is divided into gas rate per ft^3

    1 kilowatt hour= 3,412btus

    for heat pump 1KWhour = 3,412 btus X COP

    EER=3.41XCOP (EER and COP vary with conditions)

  11. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by vangoghsear View Post
    Heat Pumps and Air Conditioners are a form of overunity device. In other words, they appear to achieve greater than 100% efficiency, but what they are doing is pulling their energy from a hidden source; in the case of A/C or H/P that source is the heat in the air, so the hidden source is the sun.
    I would also take issue with the sun part. When you are cooling, the sun only makes it less efficient. The reason you can move more heat is more related to the pressure temperature relationship and the specific heat of the refrigerant. The reason it appears more than 100% efficient is because it is not creating heat, but moving it. Electric, gas, oil, etc heat are all creating heat so the highest efficiency you can get is 100%. A heat pump just moves it from one place to another but neither creates or destroys heat. It absorbs, moves, concentrates, and releases heat whereas the others create it (really they just convert chemical potential energy into heat, but you get my point).

  12. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by dijit View Post
    I would also take issue with the sun part. When you are cooling, the sun only makes it less efficient. The reason you can move more heat is more related to the pressure temperature relationship and the specific heat of the refrigerant. The reason it appears more than 100% efficient is because it is not creating heat, but moving it. Electric, gas, oil, etc heat are all creating heat so the highest efficiency you can get is 100%. A heat pump just moves it from one place to another but neither creates or destroys heat. It absorbs, moves, concentrates, and releases heat whereas the others create it (really they just convert chemical potential energy into heat, but you get my point).
    The heat in the air that is transferred to the indoor coil in the heat mode is provided by the sun. Even geothermal is a solar heated system.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  13. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by beeninyourshoes View Post
    Depends actually! Let's say you leave for a week and put the heat on 55 for that week...you come home one night in February in a New England winter. Think a 300 heat pump will heat your home that night with a 25 ambient? Now let's take the SAME scenario and hit the same home the same night with a 3000 degree nat gas furnace w a comercial Honeywell true steam ($ if u install yourself = 9 gallons of water a day) humidifier. That 3000 heat is DRY , so it must be humidified. That same home will be 72 within 3 hours; I kid you not. I DISAGREE with heat pumps in the north east. Sorry & I don't care who it pisses off. If u run a heat pump constantly without leaving? Ok maybe, but it's going to cost you $$$$ way more than gas will. This is JUST plain common sence. The problem is that common sence is the least of the seances! So I'll spell it out in plain English for you. 300 degrees is 10% of 3000 degrees. Get it now? The guy above here who said he tore out his oil furnace for a heat pump who lives in the N east??? Wait till Jan / Feb comes! They put electric heat here in S Florida since the begining of time for a reason. Then they first burned coal then oil in the N east for a reason. Probably because the 300 degrees electric OR a heat pump kicks out won't cut it up there. Now redundancy, dual stage , whatever U call it...... Heat pump w a gas furnace? = OK. But most heat pumps have electric as "emergency" or dual, or backup heat. Sure gas prices skyrocketed. But us nat gas 10 times the cost than electricity? And 10 is a NICE round figure. I lived in S Florida all my life & Mass all my life. I think this is right there for anyone to see if you just think it through. Call ANY manufacturer rep and get an honest answer to this issue. Let me know what they say!
    sorry to beat a dead horse but yes, they both accomplish the same thing just different temps as other posters had pointed out (not 3000 degrees. Even though the gas may burn at that temp or in the neighborhood, the air doesn't get anywhere near there). Heat is heat. And temperature and heat are two different things (refrigeration anyone?) Actually, a gas furnace has lots of moisture as a biproduct of combustion. That is why high efficiency (condensing) furnaces have a drain. This added moisture has to go somewhere, and in a standard efficiency furnace the exhaust gas does not get cold enough to cause it to condense out but in a high efficiency it does. When hydrocarbons (hydrogen and carbon) burns (or oxidizes), water is created (H+O -----to H2O) among other things (C+O --to-- CO and CO2)

    Of course this water does not come into contact with the room air so it doesn't effect humidity, but the point is gas does not burn "dry".

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