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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    5

    Amercian Standard Condenser Differences?

    Hi, I am replacing my HVAC system and I have lurked around the board reading the advice given. I have received some proposals and have been offered an American Standard system (AHRI # 3450443) by 2 contractors. I have been trying to find information on the AS Basic condenser unit 4A7B4048E1 without success. I note that AHRI #4A7A5048E1 with AS Allegiance condenser unit 4A7A5048E1 does have information on it out there.

    Please help me and explain what difference there is between the Basic and Allegiance AS Condenser. One contractor quoted an additional dollars for the Allegiance condenser? These 2 AHRI systems have the same coil and heater. Should I accept the Basic model?

    Thanks all,
    David
    Last edited by BaldLoonie; 03-31-2010 at 11:59 AM. Reason: removed pricing

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    4H: Hot, Humid Houston H.O.
    Posts
    3,304
    I am a homeowner close to you, and in our humid climate I would always urge you to get a variable speed (VS) furnace. With that you can vary the airflow (in specific ways) and get better humidity removal. The price premium for VS is I think rather higher than the $XXX you are concerned about, however. That generally points to the Allegiance system which is their most advertised and top of the line. I have that myself.

    All manufacturers seem to have "builders grade" systems which are stripped down. Not being a pro I will not try to detail what is the difference there. But if you own the house and this is not a bottom-dollar fix, I would certainly try to add VS to the new system.

    Best of luck -- Pstu

    P.S. You might edit out the dollar amounts, the board rules frown on discussing pricing.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    33,907
    Really they are the same unit. Same compressor, coil, fan motor. The Allegiance 15 has a compressor cover and a swept wing fan blade so will be noticably quieter. Used to have a warranty advantage but with registration, they will be the same.

    Need a high efficiency indoor blower motor to get 14 or 15 SEER.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    33,907
    I looked up the AHRI number and see what furnace is being quoted.

    pstu is right, be nice to have the VS for the Comfort R dehumidify profile or the full dehumidify on demand capability. Get the B model and the VS as a good compromise. All the A gets you is quieter unit and darker cabinet.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    5
    Thanks for the replies,

    I think I'll go with the AS Allegiance 15 model rather than the AS Basic for the 10/10/10 warranty, the contractor only offered 10/5/1 warranty for the Basic model. You have to register to receive this warranty, otherwise it defaults to the Basic. I could not find anything otherwise from the AS website on the Basic model or its warranty.

    I wanted a VS(or 2-speed) fan in the heater but the contractor said that there are no Tax Credit eligible AS systems with this. And without the Tax Credit it would be too much more $$. I did like the idea of a lower heat setting for comfort and savings here in Houston. At least the new heater will save some nat gas, my old system is a Consolidated 100k BTU unit (60% eff?)and this is a 80k BTU unit (80% eff).

    Have a good day,
    David

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    5
    The system with the Allegiance 15 condenser unit that was offered was AHRI #3438368. Again, the contractor said that there is not a VS fan/heater that is tax credit qualified which does not make sense. It seems like it would be more efficient to have that feature? Anyone know if this is true fact or not?

    Other manufacturers had this option available but the whole system just did not seem as good as the AS system for various reasons.

    Thanks,
    David

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    4H: Hot, Humid Houston H.O.
    Posts
    3,304
    Quote Originally Posted by davidcayll View Post
    The system with the Allegiance 15 condenser unit that was offered was AHRI #3438368. Again, the contractor said that there is not a VS fan/heater that is tax credit qualified which does not make sense. It seems like it would be more efficient to have that feature? Anyone know if this is true fact or not?

    Other manufacturers had this option available but the whole system just did not seem as good as the AS system for various reasons.

    Thanks,
    David
    David, how sure are you that 4 tons is the right size? Smaller units get higher efficiencies and may therefore qualify for the tax credit. Perhaps you would even consider adding a window unit for those rare occasions when temperature gets above 95F. And under the tax circumstances I definitely would consider other brands.

    FWIW my furnace was also an old Consolidated, we never could identify the CFM vs. static pressure data on that one. My Manual J heat load told me a smaller AC would suffice, I was afraid to believe it at first but a downsized AC is working out great. You can get software from this site to calculate heat load, and it is great for evaluating the effect of things like extra insulation, sealing air leaks, better windows etc. All for $XX. Or your HVAC pro might work with you on this (lots of luck).

    Best of luck -- Pstu

    P.S. I looked up systems that qualify for the tax credit under "Trane" brand, because A/S is nearly identical (but not quite). There were hundreds in the 3.5 ton and 4.0 ton sizes. Could it be your HVAC guy is telling you wrong? It seems so but I would like to confirm. Am I using this website correctly?
    http://www.ahridirectory.org/ahriDir...ultSearch.aspx

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    33,907
    Yup, guess he's right. Gets it with the X13 motor but not the variable speed.

    Trane is the same way. XR14 gets it with X13 furnace & coil, XL15i does not get it even with X13 or VS. The 16i doesn't get it AT ALL!

    If properly sized and blower speed under 400 CFM/ton, he should be OK except in cool, wet weather. Then only a whole house sucker will help.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    New Caney, Texas
    Posts
    360
    The system with the Allegiance 15 condenser unit that was offered was AHRI #3438368. Again, the contractor said that there is not a VS fan/heater that is tax credit qualified which does not make sense. It seems like it would be more efficient to have that feature? Anyone know if this is true fact or not?
    ....NOT TRUE......He must have some poor eyesight. Ya'll need to look at the 15 seer 4A7A5048E1000A Condenser and match it with the VS AUD1C080A9H41B. That will qualify for the federal tax credit. If your contractor has any questions, have him contact his local AS distributor here in Houston.

    Just wanted to add two cents for the Manual J, everyone should have it done when replacing the HVAC system.
    Last edited by quickcat46; 03-31-2010 at 09:26 PM. Reason: added

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    33,907
    Let's try this again: there isn't a tax credit match with a variable speed furnace. He is being quoted an X13 furnace as you are posting. That furnace is NOT variable speed.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    New Caney, Texas
    Posts
    360
    BaldLoonie Let's try this again: there isn't a tax credit match with a variable speed furnace. He is being quoted an X13 furnace as you are posting. That furnace is NOT variable speed.
    Listed in my book as a variable speed furnace. Does qualify for the tax credit when paired with the 15 seer 4A7A5048E1000A Condenser. You can argue with AS all you want too.
    Good Things Come To Those Who Wait, But Only the Things Left Over By Those Who Hustle.

    Abraham Lincoln

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    33,907
    The furnace in question has an ECM but is NOT variable speed. The speeds work like a PSC motor where they do not maintain CFM as statics change. They have the efficiency of variable speed however. It uses Genteq's X13 motor. In some brands, they can have features like 1/2 speed constant fan and dehumidify on demand. I don't believe A-S/Trane use those features however.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    New Caney, Texas
    Posts
    360
    BaldLoonie
    The furnace in question has an ECM but is NOT variable speed. The speeds work like a PSC motor where they do not maintain CFM as statics change. They have the efficiency of variable speed however. It uses Genteq's X13 motor. In some brands, they can have features like 1/2 speed constant fan and dehumidify on demand. I don't believe A-S/Trane use those features however.
    Looking further at the literature, the AUD1C080A9H41B is promoted as VS but the unit itself is billed as a High Efficiency SINGLE STAGE furnace. I would check back with my AS Rep. But they will be closed tomorrow. Good Friday. So on Monday I will find out, wishful promotion or a misunderstanding of design.
    That said it will achieve tax credit status for the 15 seer Condenser.
    Good Things Come To Those Who Wait, But Only the Things Left Over By Those Who Hustle.

    Abraham Lincoln

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