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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    962
    Originally posted by beenthere
    Maybe he has the intake and vent reversed at the concentric.
    This is what I was thinking. I have seen one like that and it caused alot of condensate, dripping down from the ceiling. With a pic, we might be able to tell if that is the problem or not.

  2. #15
    Really appreciate the replies from all of you... I'll grab some photos and post.

  3. #16

    Frown Where are the professionals?

    It’s just amazing that homeowners now days are required to do there own due diligence regardless of what type of home repair is contracted. What ever happened to those days when you hired a professional and you got a professional job? I don’t necessary buy the premises that you have to pay extra for it…because ALL industries are competitive!

  4. #17
    Originally posted by rimek
    It is not unheard of to install a trapped drain line for an intake, but that should only be a last resort. Most concentric kits limit the actual "concentric" part to a maximum length of 60". That would be the entire length of the concentric, including any part above the roof to the terminal. Is that the case here?
    I have not measured the length of the concentric, but my estimate puts it at about 48".

    Assuming we need to resort to a trapped drain line on the intake, may I assume it would be the contractor's responsibility to do the install?

  5. #18

    Re: Where are the professionals?

    Originally posted by thecashcow
    It’s just amazing that homeowners now days are required to do there own due diligence regardless of what type of home repair is contracted. What ever happened to those days when you hired a professional and you got a professional job? I don’t necessary buy the premises that you have to pay extra for it…because ALL industries are competitive!
    Sadly, you are spot on. There is more to this story, regarding the contractor, who was responsible for the install. You won't believe it, but it's true.

  6. #19
    Originally posted by Chill
    Originally posted by beenthere
    Maybe he has the intake and vent reversed at the concentric.
    This is what I was thinking. I have seen one like that and it caused alot of condensate, dripping down from the ceiling. With a pic, we might be able to tell if that is the problem or not.
    As I explained in my original post, the exhaust gas goes up the center pipe in the concentric, and the intake air comes down the outside. I think this is the correct configuration, due to the fact that most of the condensate is caught in the traps on the exhaust blower pipe, and goes down the drain.

  7. #20
    Originally posted by elkhvac
    Originally posted by whatthehay?
    >>>>A picture is worth a thoundsand words,

    What is the model #<<<<

    model #: FC9S135D20UP11

    I'd send a picture, but one furnace looks pretty much like any other to me. :-)


    Coleman-FC9S135D20UP11 Up flow, 40", 135kbtu, 92% condensing furnace.

    It should be draining condensate to a proper place. Where is it draining to? PIC?
    The condensate, formed in the exhaust gas vent pipe, is caught in two traps on this pipe and runs, via hoses, to the drain. No problem here. But, condensate is, also, forming in the combustion intake vent pipe with no trap, and is dripping into combustion box.

  8. #21
    Originally posted by crab master
    Of course hind site is always better but heres a good quote that neophytes serendipity has.

    Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance

    "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey. It's unwise to pay too little.
    When you pay too much, you lose a little money -- that is all. When you pay too little, you may lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do.

    The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot -- it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better."

    John Ruskin
    I, really, don't understand the point of your post, since I have not mentioned the price that I paid for the furnace and installation. What I didn't pay for was incompetence, but that is what I got. If I had paid this contractor twice as much, do you suppose he would be less incompetent?

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Newton, NJ
    Posts
    299
    What the guys are getting at is sadly the lack of regulations in this industry allow too many one man one van yahoos who just learned to tie a piece of flex last year to start their own hvac company. These guys consistantly underbid the more reputable companies and drive the value of the industry down so we then have to do a balancing act of deciding how much should be done for a customer in order to be competetive. In a recent training class we put a dollar value on all the things we do for our customers to see what the cost of a furnace and ac changeout would cost if the hvac industry priced the way Nike prices shoes... Based on value not cost of materials and labor and found the average dollar value was around 29 grand. This is the value reputable companies give the customer when they perform a 5 grand replacement. What happens is the value most customers get from the low bidder is nothing more than what they paid. So you probably did get what you paid for. You could not have paid this guy enough to be competant but you could have hired a more reputable company. You know, the other quote you got.

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    20

    I bought a new furnace and a bad deal.

    It seems an unfounded assumption that a poor installation equals the lowest bidder. Given my minimal knowledge and experience, I don't know how to positively assess the skill level and quality of workmanship of a contractor until the job is done. I imagine there are many others in the same boat.
    Not every sub-standard job is the result of the customer's parsimony.

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Pacific Time Zone
    Posts
    4,199
    Whatthehey - "I, really, don't understand the point of your post, since I have not mentioned the price that I paid for the furnace and installation. What I didn't pay for was incompetence, but that is what I got. If I had paid this contractor twice as much, do you suppose he would be less incompetent?"

    I really don't care what you paid but I'd guarantee it was not that reputable company/individual - as if it was they would be working on solving your problem instead of you trying to solve it. Also I'd bet on it being the low/only bidder.

    Granted there have been cases where a company has a great saleman, poor workmanship and poor follow ups when there is a problem and were not the low bidder but generally in cases such as what you are explaining it is that the homeowner went with the low bidder. Don't get me wrong I wish you luck on solving your problem and that would be great if you solve it yourself with the help of others here, but you paid a guy to do a job and he should be supporting you not the guys on this forum.

    Granted if you'd paid that same contractor twice as much your service may/may not have changed but if you would have been willing to pay more initially and look at those with higher bids you probably would have gotten a company with a great reputation and a willingness to keep that reputation with as many customers as possible.

    I just think that quote is one hell of a quote and that if we'd all keep from pinching pennies in the beginning we'd save many dollars in the long run. It always amazes me on people that will spend thousands of extras on flooring, countertops, furniture, etc. and then go with the low bid on the biggest item(s) (heating only or heating & cooling) that will truly help the most in their overall comfort.

    Best of luck to you in your endeavor.


    Koald - "It seems an unfounded assumption that a poor installation equals the lowest bidder. Given my minimal knowledge and experience, I don't know how to positively assess the skill level and quality of workmanship of a contractor until the job is done. I imagine there are many others in the same boat.
    Not every sub-standard job is the result of the customer's parsimony."

    That last sentence is certainly true but, Koald a bit of homework will help to insure someone makes the right choice. Here's what to look at:
    1. Experience as a valid contractor.
    2. References, calling those references and seeing if they are valid.
    3. Checking the Better Business Bureau on the company.
    4. To even get more anal ask those references if you can look at the work that was done.
    5. Hiring a different HVAC company/consultor to oversee/inspect the work to make sure it is done to satisfaction and letting the installing company know that you are going to do that prior to hiring the installer. (Letting them know prior will weed out the bad ones as they won't bid the job)
    6. Depending on your state you may be able check with Labor and Industries and see if the contractor is valid and how many infractions they have. You could even ask for the names of the individuals that would be working on your place to look them up to see if they individually are licensed.

    I am sure there are more but it's getting late and I think that list is more than sufficient.

    [Edited by Crab Master on 01-01-2006 at 01:20 AM]
    "How it can be considered "Open" is beyond me. Calling it "voyeur-ed" would be more accurate." pka LeroyMac, SkyIsBlue, fka Freddy-B, Mongo, IndyBlue
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  12. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    763
    seen one that a guy did and it wasn't put together right... might not be all the way slid inside itself.

  13. #26
    Originally posted by atphvac
    What the guys are getting at is sadly the lack of regulations in this industry allow too many one man one van yahoos who just learned to tie a piece of flex last year to start their own hvac company. These guys consistantly underbid the more reputable companies and drive the value of the industry down so we then have to do a balancing act of deciding how much should be done for a customer in order to be competetive. In a recent training class we put a dollar value on all the things we do for our customers to see what the cost of a furnace and ac changeout would cost if the hvac industry priced the way Nike prices shoes... Based on value not cost of materials and labor and found the average dollar value was around 29 grand. This is the value reputable companies give the customer when they perform a 5 grand replacement. What happens is the value most customers get from the low bidder is nothing more than what they paid. So you probably did get what you paid for. You could not have paid this guy enough to be competant but you could have hired a more reputable company. You know, the other quote you got.
    Funny... how often some people make wrong assumptions. I got only one bid from a new contractor, who purchased the business from a friend of mine that I thought I could trust to provide the tech assist, while the new guy learned the trade. The new owner had who I thought were seasoned techs working for him, who should have known how to perform the install, since they had worked for the retiring contractor. The guy that built the box too small bragged to me he had done 2,000 furnaces, with no complaints. This indicated to me that in all probability 2,000 consumers of his incompetence were not aware of the job quality they got, because they didn't have the time or interest to inspect the work in progress. I fired this tech from the job, and the following week the contractor told me he and another tech had to drive 150 miles to correct the job of the 2,000 pro, who had placed an A-coil in the return duct.

    [Edited by whatthehay? on 01-01-2006 at 02:42 AM]

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